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Sydney Colts - 2015

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Dingasden

Ward Prentice (10)
They can still play open colts and if need be they can flick between the two or play both on one day. The idea of playing under Shute Shield club name is to better promote pathway from junior rugby to Shute Shield colts & eventually grade while improving chance of fielding a team by combining forces in a district club. It is also helping to build bridges between senior & junior clubs in many districts. Senior clubs that don't take a serious interest in this run the risk of being left behind. Unless of course they have offerings such as scholarships or the like.
 

the baz

Alfred Walker (16)
that's not entirely true. Norths do have around 55 players signed, but are short of the 65-70 they need. HG is correct when he says they had a shallow roster in 2014, (around 60 players) yet they still made the finals in all 3 grades. The reasoning behind the 2 games was to have a legitimate trial, not have the players graded as yet, and see who steps up. The first game had around 30 players involved, the second around 16 with some of the players from the first backing up, and with a number out due to injury, work, not arrived from country area.
 

Whale berry

Larry Dwyer (12)
Although we are yet to see the teams on the park, if the posts about most clubs having an U/18 side as well 3 colts grades are correct, it is a bit of poke in the face of all those nay sayers who said it would never work.
Lets hope it all hangs together during the year.
 

Hans

Fred Wood (13)
Quick question for the masses, in light of some discussions on the 2015 IRB junior WC thread, can someone give me a simple run down of the points system for the colts program this year, and how it all works itself out. EG, how does having 5 aus school boys in your team affect what other players can play. Is there a difference between being on the bench and starting in regards to points used? Do Aus or NSW U20's have points applied?

Also, is anyone aware of any breaches to the points system and what were the consequences?
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Oz Reps 6 points
State Reps 4 points
New recruits 2 points
Local Jnr 1 point.
Colts 1's are allowed to field 40 points.
I understand that if a player sits on the bench after playing 2's,no points.
1 point discount for each year,so as an example Deegan or Hanigan were 6 points last year,& 5 points this year.

I am unaware of any breaches,but I assume the penalty for a breach would be loss of points for any game that player points exceeded the maximum allowed.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
I posted this explanation of how the player points system worked last year. If there have been no changes for this year then they will work the same with just the years changed where appropriate. On that assumption, here is what a 2015 version of the 2014 Player Points System would look like:
[Edit: I've now seen the 2015 Player Points Guidelines form and amended the post using strikeouts]

2015 Player Points guidelines (adapted from 2014 guidelines).

Categories
A (20 Points)
A player who has played a 15 a side test for a Tier 1 international Union

B (16 points)
A player who has at least five Super rugby or Heineken Cup caps
A player who has played 15 a side for a tier two Pacific Island international Union (e.g. Fiji, Samoa, Tonga)

C (10 Points)
A player who holds a current Super Rugby contract
A player who has played (i.e. taken the field) in 50 or more 1st grade games in NSW Premiership competition (in total across any clubs)
A Player who was an Australian age representative (U20) in 2014 or 2013
A player who has at least five SANZAR Union 1st division provincial championship (e.g. ITM Cup or Currie Cup) caps from the 2012 or 2013 season, Aviva (formerly Guinness) Premiership, RaboDirectPro12 (formerly Magners League), French top 14, Amlin Challenge (formerly European Challenge) Cup or LV (formerly Anglo Welsh) Cup in 2013 or 2014.

D (6 points)
A player who was an Australian schoolboy representative in 2014 or 2013
A player who has played between 35 and 49 1st grade games in the Premiership competition (in total across any Clubs)
A player who played more than 50% of the 1st grade Colts games at a different Premiership Club in 2014

E (4 points)
A player who is not an Australian Citizen, AND was not a resident in Australia during both 2014 AND 2013
A player who has played more than 50% of the 1st grade Colts games in 2014 {Edit: removed for 2015]
A player who has played Division 1 at the Australian Schoolboys championships in 2014

F (2 points)
All other players


Discounts available
Family
Up to 5 points for new players to the club (in their first year only) for siblings of existing players that played the previous season with the club or sons of past players.

Local
One point per year discount (up to a maximum of four points) for players who have previously played with the club or previously played with a local junior club between U10 - Open

Long Service
50% discount for eight years or more service with the club for Category A, B, C or D
one years service is deemed to be 8 games (or rep games)

Experience
Discount for Category A, B or C players (up to a maximum of five points) of one point per year each year they have been out of international union or Super competition representation


Guidelines
1. The points system applies to 1st & 2nd grade, and 1st & 2nd grade colts.

2. Cap applies to starting players and fresh reserves in each grade.

3. Players are categorised at the highest level at which they have played.

4. Points are not cumulative throughout a season – each player is only indexed at one level as of 1st January.

5. Discounts are not cumulative – only one type of discount may apply to a player. Where a player may be eligible for different types of discounts, Clubs should apply the highest discount available to the player.

6. Discounts cannot index players below 50% of their base player points.

1st Grade Cap = 100 points
2nd Grade Cap = 60 points
1st Grade Colts = 40 points
2nd Grade Colts = 30 points

HJ Comments:
1, Local Discount. 1 point per year. It may still be possible to sign up a boy from an AAGPS School in Year 11, who is no longer playing for their previous junior village club, play them for trials and games outside the School season, and then they arrive in Colts after they finish school with a 2 point discount, and they enter Grade with the maximum 4 point discount as a 20 year old. [Edit: With no bye (2 byes in 2014) it will get harder to rack up a 8 game "season" for the moonlighting AAGPS players.]

2. Schoolboys reps carry their 6 points for 2 years instead of dropping to 4 points in their second year out of School - Meh

3. Max of 50% discount and applicable only after 8 years or > 8 games with the club (or assume 8 games with their Rep team (assume Soup Franchise). It will be interesting how this pans out. This could potentially introduce some serious challenges into the annual "branch stacking" we see at finals time when the 5 years service veterans used to return from their professional duties at at 0 points.

That is a big change that will impact on Grade. No impact to all intents and purposes for Colts.

4. I feel sorry for a fellow who does a Shoulder in round 6 and is out for the season with Team Rehab. That season they will be deemed to have not counted as being a long serving member of that club.

5. It will become harder but not impossible to warehouse an Australian Schoolboy in 2nds Colts (and possibly run him on as a 0 points "tired" reserve in 1st Colts).

6. Fresh Reserve discount = 100%. Perhaps the fresh reserve must have had to have played for > 3/4 of the lower grade game time to qualify as a 0 point player. 50% discount to their score if the non-fresh reserve has played a full half of lower grade rugby, and they are classified as a fresh reserve if they played less than a full half of lower grade footy. Good idea but administratively difficult to monitor.

7. A player who played more than 50% of the 1st grade Colts games in 2014 = 4 points. This will probably give clubs like Gordon, and Penrith who are rebuilding and don't have a big turnover of players from Colts 1 to Grade from season to season some grief.
10 returning players at 4 points - 2 points for 2 local years (1 in junior and 2014 in colts 1) = 20 points.
2 kids non local who played NSW II at National Champs 2014 = 8 points (total - 28 so far)
12 points left for 3 players to make the 40 point cap.
[Edit: removed in the final 2015 version]

8. Non local Aust Schoolboys may become Colts points cap pariahs and as unintended consequences they may be fast tracked to 3rd Grade where they attract no points, or 2nd grade where there is more scope to warehouse a 6 pointer while their points value starts to drop for loyalty.

Team Managers have to fill out an individual points assessment declaration for each player.

Assuming that there have been no changes to the Competition Rules for 2015, then this post from @Moonball is explains the potential consequences of breaches of the Player Points Cap system.
It is spelled out pretty clearly in the rules what should happen -

7.5.1 If a Club breaches this rule by exceeding the cap permitted in 7.3.2, in any one Competition Round, the penalty will be the loss of five competition points and the respective Club Championship points for each grade or each of the grades in which the breach occurred irrespective of the result of the match or matches.

7.5.2 If a form is incorrectly completed or provides false or misleading information regarding a player‟s category or discount under rules 7.1 or 7.2 above, the Club and or player will be referred to the CEO and may be asked to appear before the Judiciary.

7.5.2.1 Clubs found guilty by the Board of exploiting the rules under rule 7 may have competition points deducted and or suffer further penalty as determined by the Board.



All we need is the people running the comp to administer the rules they set out. Please do it now not like what happened to WH 1st grade in 2004 where they had 19 comp points taken off them just prior to semis so these clubs realise your serious and the rest of the comp does not become the joke the first 2 rounds have been.


How do clubs manage their player points to stay under the cap at Colts level if they have a lot of former Schoolboys?
10 point Category C Players (2014 Aust U20 players) aren't generally found in Colts 1 or 2 the year after they represent Australia. Most are no longer Under 20, or if they are, they are in Grade, or Pro Footy.

6 Point Category D Players.
Last years Aust Schoolboys.
  • Apply loyalty discounts. 2014 Aust Schoolboys, Ed Craig (Eastwood) and Andrew Vatuvei (2 Blues) will be reduced to 3 Player points because they have played in their respective districts for more than 3 years.
  • Play them in 3rd Grade (0 points - Pulver at Uni), 2nd Grade (like H Jones - he got loyalty discount for the Rats as well and had a brother already with the club [5 points discount in the first year]) or 1sts (Hanigan, Deegan, Kellaway all played for Wicks in Shute shield) to make space in your Colts 1 Cap.
  • The real Rock Stars who make Aust U20's will probably be away on National Duties until after Jnr RWC.
Clubs with 5 or more 2014 or 2013 Aust Schoolboys on their books could feasibly play all of them in Colts 1 simultaneously and not break the player points cap but I can't recall a Colts 1 team having 6 former schoolboys in the run on team at once happening over the last 3 years. Here's how:
The 15 players at Jarse Club Colts 1 team are:
1. 2014 Schoolboy = 6 points (makes Aust U20's in 2015 but Player Points are calculated on 1 Jan 2015 so is not a Cat C player)
2. 2013 Schoolboy, non local = 5 points (6 - 1 local point for 2014 season)
3. 2014 Schoolboy = 3 points (6 - 3 points for playing village club footy from 10's to 13's)
4. Nigel Nobody = 1 point ( local kid with no state schoolboy rep history)
5. Sione Sombodi'i = 1 point (2nd year with this club, from Colts 2 last year)
6. 2014 Schoolboy = 3 points (Joins brother or is at Dad's old club (5 point discount not available in 2016) 6-5 family discount =2 but increased to 3 due to maximum discount of 50% of base points)
7. 2014 Schoolboy = 6 points (no discount)
8. 2013 NSW II = 2 points (2 points local discount, 1 for colts 2014 and 1 for ghost player Under 16's rego to make NSW JRU State Champs)
9. 2014 NSW I = 2 points (2 points local discount - junior rego from U10 - U15)
10.2013 Combined States = 2 points (2 points discount - Under 13 and Colts 2014)
11.2013 Schoolboy = 4 point (6 points - 1 point local discount from Colts 2 2014 and ghost player U16 rego for NSW JRU State Champs)
12.Bill Battler =1 point (1 point local discount from Colts 2 2014)
13.Bryan Bolter = 2 points (Loig recruit)
14.Avei Aniplay'a = 1 point (local discount U10-U17)
15.Charles Cant-Kickaball = 1 point (1 point local discount from Colts 2 2014)

I think that is 40 player points with 6 Former Aust Schoolboys, 2 NSW Schoolboys, 1 Combined States, & 6 normal kids.
Edit: Changes made to above after being shown the 2015 Player Points Calculation Form.
 

Hans

Fred Wood (13)
Thanks ILTW & HJ, much appreciated. Just on a very quick glance, biggest abuse of the points system would have to seem that putting players in Colts 2, or using them in some manner in colts 2, then running them on as reserves in colts 1 is the way around it.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
I'll run the Jarse-o-meter over the 2014 colts team sheets later to look for any cases where we had a 6 or 5 point player( 6 point - 1 point for local) who started Colts 2 and then ran on Colts 1 off the bench as a fresh reserve. If it has happened, it didn't happen many times.

Bear in mind that warehousing a 6 point player in Colts 2 will make it rather hard to stay under the Colts 2 Points cap which is 30.

There is a rule (or Gentleman's agreement) that Former Oz Schoolboys are not permitted to play in Colts 3. Never seen it written down, and can not remember if it has ever happened in the last 3 years. So there is no rort of starting them in the 3's (for a 15 minute cameo) and then running them off the bench in 2's or 1's as a non-fresh reserve worth 0 points.

EDIT:
Jarse-o-meter fired up from hibernation.
In the 2014 home and away Colts games, only two players worth more than 4 player points played in Colts 2, and one of those I believe is a 3 point player not a 6 point player which the club declared him to be as the Club appeared to not apply a maximum local junior discount for him.

Player 1 started in Colts 2 in rounds 2, 3 and 7. He only came on off the bench for Colts 1 in Round 3. Ahead of him was an incumbent NSW U20 player, so it is hardly a rort to see him playing the odd game in the 2's.

Player 2 at a different club started for the 2's in Rounds 4 and 14, coming off the bench for the 1's in both rounds. His form was a little indifferent and his starts in the 2's were due to that fact not to get around Points Player cap issues. In Round 2 his club has 25/30 player points in the 2's and 33/40 points in the 1's, and in round 14 they had 27/30 points in the 2's and 32/40 points in the 1's. On both occasions his club could have played this individual in the Colts 1 starting team and not been over the cap.

Hardly systemic Colts 2 stacking and Colts 1 fresh reserve discount abuse.

I didn't keep any record of season 2013 but I recall that young Pulveriser played a few Colts 2 games for the Corporation when he wasn't on National U20 duty. That may have been legit as I think that they did have a fairly capable #9 in the 1's when Gus was back in the 2's (name forgotten).
 

couldabeen

Alfred Walker (16)
OK - game on! The young bloke starts another season with Uni this week with trials against Eastwood. The season of Saturday commutes to the big smoke is on again. It is all good. When he has home games, and if he is not too knocked about, we head to one of the excellent restaurants in Glebe or Newtown after the games. I also get to catch up with one of my daughters living in Sydney. Go the corporation.
 

wreckless

Bob Loudon (25)
I posted this explanation of how the player points system worked last year. If there have been no changes for this year then they will work the same with just the years changed where appropriate. On that assumption, here is what a 2015 version of the 2014 Player Points System would look like:

2015 Player Points guidelines (adapted from 2014 guidelines).

..........................

HJ - could you expand a bit on this comment? ;)

Wreckless
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
^^^ @wreckless, I am unaware of any changes for season 2015. That is not to say that there haven't been any, just that my snouts have been silent on any changes, and no one has responded on this thread when I posed the question earlier.

All I have done is then changed the year 2013 to 2014, and 2012 to 2013 where they appeared on the 2014 document that I have to make if look and feel like what the 2015 player points cap policy may be if it is fundamentally unchanged from 2014.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
<snip> we head to one of the excellent restaurants in Glebe or Newtown after the games.<snip>.

Don't overlook a trip to the Rocks Brewery in Bourke Street Alexandria or Young Henrys Brewery in Wilfred street Newtown when you are in Olde Sydney Towne watching young couldabeen at St Pauls. You can get a decent feed at the Rocks, or go somewhere else in Newtown with a bottle or two of Young Henrys.

We also expect a line or two on the trial at TG Millner.
 

wreckless

Bob Loudon (25)
OK - game on! The young bloke starts another season with Uni this week with trials against Eastwood. The season of Saturday commutes to the big smoke is on again. It is all good. When he has home games, and if he is not too knocked about, we head to one of the excellent restaurants in Glebe or Newtown after the games. I also get to catch up with one of my daughters living in Sydney. Go the corporation.

With you on this couldabeen! I've got one of mine at Uni again this year as well - he's been hanging out for the real stuff to start after a good solid preseason! Cheers, Wreckless :)
 

Tah and feathered

Watty Friend (18)
Trial v Norths report on Souths Colts App
NORTHERN SUBURBS TRIALS REPORT:

Southern Districts colts had their first trial for 2015 against Norths at Redmond field, Rockdale.

The combined U18s/ 3rd colts started the day against Norths 4th grade and with the help of some Souths 4th graders put in a very strong defensive effort to go down 4 tries to 1 in a very willing game.

The Souths boys really stood up to the bigger Norths players who knew how to play the game and executed their opportunities a bit better than the Souths players but a very pleasing start to the season.

2nd Colts had a rough day losing 9 tries to 2 and with over 20 players unavailable to play they bore the brunt of the missing players and the disruptions. Norths won the break down and this allowed them to mount a lot of pressure which turned to points and it was a learning experience, and with some adjustments a better result will be seen next week against Parramatta.

Colts 1 had a good win 4 tries to 2 in a strong performance that was off the back of a very strong scrum and some good defense out wide.

Norths were trying to give their backs some good quick go forward ball but the aggressive defense of the forwards limited Norths opportunities, when they did go wide the backs were able to shut it down.

Norths had about 70% of the ball and for Souths to come away with a strong win indicates the effort of the players in hot conditions.

Good to see our Gloucester English connection of Winger Tom Evans and Lock Josh Lyons each getting a bit of the Honey Badger meat with Josh sprinting 1 metre to the line with 4 in and aways or were they head wobbles? To score of a nice Jake Lubrano break.

Jack Conen won a 75 metre sprint to score the first try and Prop Milan Papilli was too big close to the line and Tom Evans a nicely worked 8,9,11 up the blind off a very good scrum.

Next week the trials against Parramatta at Barden Ridge where all 4 colts sides will be playing.

Play of the day to Zane Pratt our U/18s fullback who got hammered by a Norths player who was 30kg heavier and Zane to his credit got up and played strongly to set the tone that the 18s were not going to be intimidated.

Player of the day goes to Brock Hammond captain of the injured players water boys team who did a great job keeping the water flowing in very hot conditions.
 

couldabeen

Alfred Walker (16)
Yesterday I watched the Corp vs Eastwood trial games at T G Milner (Is it just me or has NOTHING changed at TG since 1978? Even the paint in the Dunnies looks the same)
3rd grade was probably even. 2nd half very messy with many scrums. Uni have a good number of new players, some of them youngsters, but I don't know if they will have an 18's team.
2nd grade Uni walloped Eastwood who missed a lot of tackles. Don't despair you woodies supporters, I reckon Uni were remarkably cohesive and fast given it was their first hit out, and the Eastwood seconds will get some structure into their defence quickly enough.
1sts, I think Uni won the game but it was lot closer than 2's. Uni played fast Rugby and scored in the backs like previous years.
Overall Eastwood had scrum problems across the grades but that might just have been due to weariness, I reckon most of their big boppers could lose a kilo or two.
Uni have two new coaches taking on the 3rds and at least one of last years 3rds coaches has moved up to 2nds.
Uni have a good stock of front rowers and number 9's.
One noisy and opinionated muppet was told to shut up and move along by the Ground Marshall at the Ref's request. I hate it when people shout advice to the referees so I enjoyed that moment.
Thanks Eastwood and best wishes for the season ahead.
The Corp heads down to Kiama next week for full club trials against the Canberra Vikings. That will cut 4 hours off my total travel time so I am happy.
 

Dingasden

Ward Prentice (10)
Trial v Norths report on Souths Colts App
NORTHERN SUBURBS TRIALS REPORT:

Southern Districts colts had their first trial for 2015 against Norths at Redmond field, Rockdale.

The combined U18s/ 3rd colts started the day against Norths 4th grade and with the help of some Souths 4th graders put in a very strong defensive effort to go down 4 tries to 1 in a very willing game.

I just scratch my head at the idea of 16 & 17 year olds playing grade players 5 or more years older. If one of the 16 year olds were seriously injured I'd imagine the player insurance would be void and there would be some very nervous Souths coaches and board members. Hopefully some common sense prevails in future.
 

wreckless

Bob Loudon (25)
The Corp heads down to Kiama next week for full club trials against the Canberra Vikings. That will cut 4 hours off my total travel time so I am happy.

Thanks Couldabeen! I'm making the trip back from across the Ditch for that trial at Kiama! Looking forward to that and to seeing how they go. Cheers, Wreckless :)
 
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