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Sydney Subbies 2014

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Heavyd

Trevor Allan (34)
In relation to Forest I have heard the same thing. Looking at their upcoming 4 or 5 games I cannot see it getting any rosier for them either.

What's the story with Forrest, I have missed the news on them?


Speculation that due to overall club position, injuries, retirements etc that some of their better players are about to give it away. Might add it is massively 3rd hand info so could be way off. Looking at the comp ladders apart from1st grade club moral you could assume would not be high with there teams coming 8th,10th,9th,and 8th.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
I cannot agree witht colts decoupling from the club on game day. If colts are not part of game day they wont stick around. If you want to play colts and be isolated from grade go to shute shield.

If its convenient for them to play on the day, then great. But not all clubs support colts, and not all colts have a ready made club to go into.

We want to INCREASE participation, not anchor ourselves to outdated structures
 

Heavyd

Trevor Allan (34)
Rumour is the player transfer market is picking up with some clubs getting the cheque book out as some 2nd Div clubs attempt to poach players to avoid relegation.[/quote]


Sounds like the rumour had legs as this weeks subbies rep program has one of the rep players named as from the Hunters Hill club. In the same program last game against Combined services this same player was down representing St Pats.

Why would you leave a team coming 1st in Kentwell to join a team coming 2nd last in Barraclough??? He must just love an underdog!
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Or the money is better. Or the conditions are better.

Vinnie Byrne joined Brothers from Premier rugby, remember.
 

Whale berry

Larry Dwyer (12)
I work with someone deep inside the Campbelltown setup (Let's call him Mr X). To lay some rumours to rest:

1) At the start of the year, a motion was raised to move to IDRU, and defeated.

2) They were told to run all grades or else, and they took "or else". Other clubs also took that route, but paid the fees to Subbies in order to just be listed as forfeit instead of having championship points taken off them.

3) Previously, when told to run 5th Grade or else, they picked up the disbanded Liverpool players from the year before. This gave Tim Richards the shits because Liverpool had some disciplinary issues apparently.

4) Ultimately they've had a shit year with injuries and internal politics to the point of firing multiple coaches, and now they're trying to pull it back out of the fire. Cultural change coming.

There appears to be no doubt that they'll be relegated, even with Beecroft's poor showing to date.

Mr X suggested that First Division should be for clubs who want to spend all the money on players in their little dick-swinging competition while the rest of the clubs got on with being clubs.

When I suggested promotion/relegation with Premier Rugby, Mr X said that Premier Rugby don't want any more east/north clubs, and would rather have a more competitive, properly SYDNEY-WIDE competition i.e. with more Western Sydney clubs. They don't want Drummoyne, for example, with West Harbour just up the street.

Mr X also said that there is more money floating around in Subbies than there is in Premier Rugby at the moment but unless the north shore in particular reorganised itself, clubs were going to be put under a lot of pressure.

We know that Parramatta and Penrith are perennial strugglers, but look at Gordon - they are coming apart at the seams results-wise, and they're really crowded in by other clubs.

Mr X is a big fan of the 3 Grade maximum, and uncoupling the Championship system from Colts.



Ah pfitzy, so many things to respond to.
Knowing that we have fundamental different point of view on most things that is not surprising.

Firstly Campbelltown,
Who raised the motion to go IDRU, committee, coaches, players?? and who defeated it and why.

It seems like they decided to play in Div 1 ball park, but right from the begining they knew they couldn't play by the rules, seems like a dumb move to me.
Nothing against the club or the players

From the other points your source mentioned, 5th grade, sacking coaches etc it would be fair to say they have a admin problem which results in a culture problem which results in a player problem.
No change of competition or dropping the number of grades will turn around their fortunes until they sort out the admin.

Secondly, I take offence at his/your assertion that to be a Div 1 clubs you engage in a little dick swinging competition.
All through this thread you have a chip on your shoulder about Div 1 clubs fielding 4 + grades. I don't know what club you have been involved with or what experiences you have had with Div 1 clubs but if they can field 4 or 5 grades plus colts what impact does it have the smaller clubs, wether they be from east,west or south.
I also take offence at the continual use of "class warfare" - it is always the fault of north shore and eastern suburbs clubs. Sydney is a big city with different demographics resulting in many differences.

Promo/Rel to Premier Rugby.
Whilst I think there could be an argument to reintroduce it i can see merit in the argument that adding (at different times) Drummoyne, Pats and Balmain to Premier rugby doesn't grow the competition across Sydney.

Perennial Strugglers
Yes, Penrith have struggled, it is a tough gig for them, made worse when NSWRU cut off support for their development officers, (but that is another story). However they have started to rebuild their colts program, realising that a grass roots approach to growth is more sustainable. It is early days but it looks like they are heading in the right direction.

I would not call Parramatta a struggler they are reaping the rewards of a rebuilding program and getting some good results in both grade and colts.

Gordon are struggling at the moment, I believe caused by poor admin over the last few years, but they have changed the board and making some progress. Again they are starting to rebuild their colts and the early signs are there.

The outtake is these clubs recognise their situation and are taking action to over come it

3 grade/uncoupling colts
Let me deal with uncoupling colts, the common theme with Penrtih, Parra and Gordon (and some subbies clubs as expressed in this thread earlier) is that to rebuild/maintain your position it is essential to have a strong colts program.
If we accept that why in the hell would any club want to "uncouple" their colts.
Having colts as part of club champo provides the incentive for clubs to focus on colts.
Restricting clubs to only having 3 grades, firstly what are you going to say to the 300 or so players currently running around in Div 1 and Div 2 4th grade teams - " sorry no game for game you next year, it is not fair on the lower division teams" - great way to grow participation.

I say again if there is a demand for 4/5 grade clubs let them play.

I havnt had much experience with the subbies admin and I am sure they have made some dumb decisions over the years but when you look a the numbers of games that are organised each week and generally happen with out much drama we have a pretty damm good competition.

Yes, again as we have discussed previously, there a number of improvements that could be made to help smaller, geographically challenged clubs but why do we need to tear down the whole thing.
 

Prodigy

Alex Ross (28)
Bit of disappointment from our club and maybe yours WhaleBerry. Subbies have axed our Halligans Cup game today because it has decreed that no games are to be played today. The game was scheduled for a 10am kickoff, which both teams were happy with.
It seems as a bit of a kick in the pants, considering how broken up the Division 3 comp is (bye this weekend, game last week, bye the week before), and the fact that another Division 3 club is allowed to play a make up match starting later.
 

Whale berry

Larry Dwyer (12)
I was told that it was an edict from higher up the food chain.
They didn't want anything to detract from the test today.
As if playing a Halligan cup game at 10am would detract.
You have to wonder about the mind set at Head Office sometimes
 

Heavyd

Trevor Allan (34)
In theory when player payments cease next year we should see a significant shift of players leaving subbies and shifting back to grade?
 

Rugby Central

Charlie Fox (21)
In theory when player payments cease next year we should see a significant shift of players leaving subbies and shifting back to grade?

What?!?!?! Players are getting paid at the moment? I've asked around and nobody is paying any players anywhere. Subbies should be able to hold on to all their players:p
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Firstly Campbelltown,
Who raised the motion to go IDRU, committee, coaches, players?? and who defeated it and why.

What does it matter? It was defeated.

This kind of disruption was definitely an issue with regard to both their lower Grades disbanding, and they (and Beecroft apparently) need to address that without doubt if they wish to continue in First Division.


It seems like they decided to play in Div 1 ball park, but right from the begining they knew they couldn't play by the rules, seems like a dumb move to me.

Internal political friction is always a dumb move, but no-one has a cure for it.

If Campbelltown said "Sorry we can't field 4th or 5th Grade, we need to go down to 3rd Division to comply with your rules", it creates three problems from Subbies' point of view:

a) Another team besides the promoted club has to move up to First Division
b) Another team besides the promoted club has to move up to Second Division
c) Campbelltown Colts have to play in another competition altogether; your assertion that Colts are extremely important to a club is valid, but if that's the case, why aren't ALL First, Second, and Third Division clubs REQUIRED to field them? Does not fielding a Colts team in First Division come under "dumb move" too?


Secondly, I take offence at his/your assertion that to be a Div 1 clubs you engage in a little dick swinging competition.

If you have another way to call a spade a spade, I'd be happy to hear it. Unless its the word "little" you're taking offence at :)

It is no secret that First Division Subbies pays more money than Premier Rugby, and anyone who tries to deny takes on the mantle of a feckless cretin.


All through this thread you have a chip on your shoulder about Div 1 clubs fielding 4 + grades. I don't know what club you have been involved with or what experiences you have had with Div 1 clubs but if they can field 4 or 5 grades plus colts what impact does it have the smaller clubs, wether they be from east,west or south.

You've missed my point by some margin. If you're playing at Mosman (I assume) then its unsurprising you don't understand the difficulties of a lower Division club.

I'm not against ANY club who can field 5 Grades. I think that any strength rugby can draw upon is required in this day and age.

What concerns me is that there isn't enough competitive equity in the present system, particularly as it regards to performance of a club over the ability of it to simply throw more players at the system, and stay out of relegation by simply not being the utter worst in that Division.

You can have a combination of a couple of good Grades, and the rest shit, and still not be relegated. There might be clubs in a lower division who are better across the board, but can't force their way upwards. If you can't field 5-6 teams every week, you'll get punished for forfeiting and lose points, then drift downwards again.

If you had a system whereby the competition points were limited to 3 Grades + Colts, then you create a much more even footing for Promotion and Relegation. Everyone in those Divisions is on the same basis, and in addition to compulsory promotion/relegation you can even introduce challenge rounds post-season for teams who believe they can climb.

Instead of 6 Divisions with decreasing sizes that suffer through promotion and relegation, you could widen the base to get to 7 or even 8 Divisions with incentive to have Colts + 3 Grades, and the ability to move up a Division on their own terms. For those that can't compete at this level there is still the opportunity to play less grades and attempt to grow themselves.

Redfield OB First XV, for example, would probably challenge a lot of clubs across any Division. Further - and this is just from the outside looking in - they have an association basis and small feeder system as a result of the school. Their members are like-minded, share an ethical background more often than not, and are more likely to chip in and volunteer.

At no point did I say I was tearing down anything. But you can't expect rugby to actually grow on a competitive basis while you're tied to a numbers = success system. You're simply not giving enough clubs the opportunity to compete for the big trophies because they have too many hurdles to jump and the pyramid is too narrow at the base for the height of its peak.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
To add a final point:

In the understanding that the former 4/5 Grade players still want to represent the club, there is no reason why they can't do what Colleagues did years ago and play their spares in a lower Division.

As I've said a few times: there is more than enough room for a Masters comp among the First Division Clubs (even if some of them don't want to play Colts) and they also seem to be happy to play Halligan Cup as well.

I'm not for a second aiming to detract from the social aspect of rugby. However if there is going to be money in the game for the top grades then at least let's come out and make it officially competitive.
 

thecow

Ward Prentice (10)
This has been sent out to all Subbies clubs. Thought it would be appropriate for to be here as well:

NSW Rugby Referees are experiencing extreme difficulty appointing to all games in the Suburban calendar. We barely have enough referees to cover all of the fixtures from week to week. As the season has progressed we have had referees double up to cover two matches.
Consequently we now have 25 referees injured in any given week and this is compounding the doubling-up trend. The situation has reached a critical point where we need more referees to cover all games.
Clubs will be affected by having to provide their own referees to some games. Tim Richards will notify you if this occurs. Clubs are reminded that the minimum requirement to referee in NSW is SmartRugby. If you do need to appoint your own referee do not go pursuing one from your local district association as they are experiencing the same shortage of referees.
How Your Club Can Assist
To try to solve this problem in the short term we will soon be running a Referee Course to qualify some new referees. We ask you to send people along to that course. Course date and rego details soon.
We need you to help us market refereeing to your members (and friends, parents and spectators). The upside for you is that ultimately we will again cover all of your games. We believe retired players (or players who have an injury which precludes contact) make good referees.
Referee Week
As part of our program to recruit more referees, a public awareness program called ‘Referee Week’ will run from 30 Jun to 6 Jul. Some activities already planned are:
• Referees to attend club trainings in Referee week. All referees have been strongly encouraged to attend their local club training to put a personal face on refereeing and to reinforce the need for referee recruitment so that all games are covered.
• All 1st Grade Referees on 28 Jun and 5 Jul will be tasked to speak to the issue in post-game speeches (where these occur) to outline the need and to promote the course.
I will keep everyone abreast of any developments and new initiatives as they occur. The main aim of this activity is to generate new recruits to attend the Referee Course after Referee Week.
This is a critical issue. We can’t cover all the games and clubs are going to be affected. Help us to help you.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Another problem that had been building for ages, but going largely unaddressed.

I might have to front up and get qualified at long last.

Wife will NOT be happy...
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
It was is pretty much splitting Divisions into haves and have-nots. Balmain in particular have done some massive work in the last 5 years simply because they've got the money to do so.

Its not like clubs just get people from their local catchment any more - some guys playing for money in the bigger clubs are here on tourist visas, or are simply unemployed, getting welfare, and playing footy for cash to subsidise their income.
 

Champion

Bob McCowan (2)
It was is pretty much splitting Divisions into haves and have-nots. Balmain in particular have done some massive work in the last 5 years simply because they've got the money to do so.

Its not like clubs just get people from their local catchment any more - some guys playing for money in the bigger clubs are here on tourist visas, or are simply unemployed, getting welfare, and playing footy for cash to subsidise their income.
Personally I think payments should still be allowed
 

Rugby Central

Charlie Fox (21)
Personally I think payments should still be allowed

As do I......just not in Subbies. At this level very few clubs (not enough to justify a full competition) have the kind of money to maintain player payments.

The arguments about "haves" vs "have-nots" is not about some social equity, tall-poppy syndrome. It about making turning out for your average club against the Balmains an exercise in futility and lacking in enjoyment.

While everyone in Subbies playes for the fun of it, quite litterally getting bashed week-in week-out kind of sucks the fun out of it.

If players are good enough, they should be paid. Just not in Subbies. It's a monumental failure on NSWRU's part the situation has come to this. Creating the Shute Shield sheltered workshop means clubs that can't afford it are being forced to compete where they shouldn't and in Subbies there are clubs that are wasting their time on Saturdays because they have a snowballs chance in hell of losing. Why should Beecroft turn up to get hammered against St Pats when they could forfiet, then go to the pub and have an uninjured side against Iggies the following week. The result is the same but they're in a much better position the following week.

The other alternative is instead of lementing the difficulties of Clubs fielding 3 or 4 grades plus Colts, this forum would be discussing whether there should be a reserve grade competition for Div 2. That is why payments at this level have to be banned.
 

Paul Bearer

Frank Row (1)
A good source has informed me a NSW country representative has been enticed back into the NSW Suburban comp with a lucrative deal. The Div 2 team has already been poaching players from other DIV 1 teams mid season to avoid relegation with offerings of accomodation, $70k job and a vehicle on top of match fee's. Talk about appalling. money talks &..... well you know the rest.
 
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