Wallabies 2023

[stillmissit]

I think this year is too early for Carter Gordon. I have a sneaking suspicion that Foley will actually be our starting 10 at the pointy end of the RWC through form or injury.

But Carter is tackling at 90%! He's laid 30 more tackles than the next 10 in the competition. He's To'omua if he could set up an attack. He's Cooper if he could tackle.

If Eddie leaves C. Gordon behind then that says all you need to know about him. As you all know I am not a great EJ (Eddie Jones) fan but like all of us I am fascinated to see how he deals out the lollies. No Tupoa for the early games must be factored in, I suspect that rules out Tupoa for the cup and if we don't have Bell for the cup or he gets a repeat of his injury then we are looking threadbare for the big games.

 

[Slim 293]

Good point.

Had a Matt Burke though.

And a Stirling Mortlock... and a Matt Giteau too...

But, with both of those players missing in 2005 Larkham kicked 6 conversions against the Bulls and Stormers.

 

[Braveheart81]

If Eddie leaves C. Gordon behind then that says all you need to know about him. As you all know I am not a great EJ (Eddie Jones) (Eddie Jones) fan but like all of us I am fascinated to see how he deals out the lollies.

What would it say about Eddie Jones?

The reality is we play 4 tests before the RWC squad is selected. It's pretty reasonable to think that isn't a sufficient amount of time to bring in an uncapped player to play 10.

 

[Braveheart81]

Good point.

Had a Matt Burke though.

Looks like he could still slot one over from anywhere.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Yeah Burkey perpetually looks like he's just stepped off the park and could be ready to play at any moment. Jeez he was a good footballer.

On Gordon, I really really want him to be picked for the Wallabies this year, though I could understand EJ (Eddie Jones) being a bit risk averse on that front.

 

[Braveheart81]

I still feel like the biggest challenge for Jones is if Quade Cooper is his first choice 10 (and I think he will be) then you want him playing as many minutes in those four tests as possible.

Now who do you get as your backup? Is it Carter Gordon with close to zero test experience or Bernard Foley who has a ton of experience and is fresh off a strong season in Japan?

The Wallabies took Berrick Barnes to be Larkham's backup in 2007 with zero experience but the alternatives at that time were either an 18 year old Kurtley Beale or James Hilgendorf. Giteau was playing 10 for the Force as well but he was the Wallabies first choice 12.

I think there is every chance that Gordon doesn't play a test this year but likewise Eddie Jones already has him pencilled in as the starter in 2024.

Every quote from Eddie Jones about the "smash and grab" campaign to win the Bledisloe and RWC doesn't strike me as meshing with an uncapped 10.

 

[Dctarget]

I still feel like the biggest challenge for Jones is if Quade Cooper is his first choice 10 (and I think he will be) then you want him playing as many minutes in those four tests as possible.

Now who do you get as your backup? Is it Carter Gordon with close to zero test experience or Bernard Foley who has a ton of experience and is fresh off a strong season in Japan?

The Wallabies took Berrick Barnes to be Larkham's backup in 2007 with zero experience but the alternatives at that time were either an 18 year old Kurtley Beale or James Hilgendorf. Giteau was playing 10 for the Force as well but he was the Wallabies first choice 12.

I think there is every chance that Gordon doesn't play a test this year but likewise Eddie Jones already has him pencilled in as the starter in 2024.

Every quote from Eddie Jones about the "smash and grab" campaign to win the Bledisloe and RWC doesn't strike me as meshing with an uncapped 10.

Yeah Quade with Foley as his understudy. Thought Foley performed really well last year in Gold.

 

[Proud Pig]

Eddie keeps talking about the smash and grab at the WC. I am sure he doesn't expect to win the thing but he wants a really good showing with a chance to cause some upsets. I don't think he wants a steady limp through the group stages and honorable loss in the quarters.

To cause some big upsets he will need a 10 who can break open defenses. QC (Quade Cooper) has that potential, he can do the sublime and the ridiculous.

Foley on the other hand is Mister steady, won't make many mistakes but is very unlikely to throw up the cutout pass the parts the red sea.

If Eddie is looking for an attacking 10 who might do something spectacular then I think QC (Quade Cooper) backed by Carter is the way to go. If Eddie wants steady then Foley back by Noah seems likely.

Personally, I would rather Eddie be brave and go out swinging, it may end badly but it will be fun.

 

[KOB1987]

Yeah Quade with Foley as his understudy. Thought Foley performed really well last year in Gold.

I think this is the most likely scenario, with Hodge as a journeyman plan C. If Quade gets injured (or doesn't recuperate) things get interesting. It's probably Noah that gets on the plane TBH.

 

[Doritos Day]

I think this is the most likely scenario, with Hodge as a journeyman plan C. If Quade gets injured (or doesn't recuperate) things get interesting. It's probably Noah that gets on the plane TBH.

Australia only win the WC if point of difference players fire.

Noah is a redundant pick - no team is winning the tournament with a playmaker who turns in okay 6/10 performances as a ceiling. If Cooper goes down I'd much rather see Gordon who might be 50% chance of a 3/10 and 50% chance of a 9/10; at least you give yourself a chance.

 

[Ignoto]

Odd to mention Carter Gordon's goal kicking ability but have Quade as our number 1.

That SA game where he slotted 100% is the exception and not the norm. He was hovering around the 70's% last time he played in Australia wasn't he?

 

[Braveheart81]

Australia only win the WC if point of difference players fire.

If Cooper goes down I'd much rather see Gordon who might be 50% chance of a 3/10 and 50% chance of a 9/10; at least you give yourself a chance.

I don't see that as being a reasonable expectation of the likely outcomes. How often do we see a 9/10 performance by any Wallaby let alone one with zero experience in a high pressure situation?

The issue with Gordon is that you would be thrusting him into the situation cold. Whoever the backup is will get limited or no test match time prior to the RWC and limited time running with the starting team at training. Do you back the a new player to make the best of that or a player with a lot of experience? My bet would be on Foley there.

Is it a more conservative option, yes. I also think it is way more likely to win high pressure games at the RWC.

Cooper's good form for the Wallabies in 2021 wasn't on the back of playing in a flamboyant and high risk way. It was making sensible decisions and executing well in the right areas of the field.

 

[Rugbyman2023]

I was abit disappointed with foley, allthough being a safe option looked timid in contact in attach and defence last year missing some key tackles and not wanting to get tackled

was it the French that he through a no look bad ball which was intercepted last year looking like he was trying to avoid a tackle?
On experience he would be fine but Gordon is killing. Super rugby

noah looks well behind the equation atm, played good for 60 min v Gordon but has done little since while Gordon has been great all year

seems they will go with only 2 specialist 10a and maybe a back up in hodge covering multiple positions, not 3 out and put 10s?

 

[Sword of Justice]

Foley's best possible game gets worse for the Wallabies every year his career goes on.

If we select him at this RWC it'll only be for the purposes of saving the furniture. So underwhelming last year and only ever solid for us since 2015.

He was a much better player when he had that deceptive turn of pace early on after his 7s days. He's definitely lost his 'ice man' quality as well.

 

[qwerty51]

He's 2 years younger than Quade and never done and ACL or Achillies. Ok.

Just be thankful we have 2 players well into their 30s, 100+ Super Rugby caps, 70+ Test caps and 2 RWCs of experience to choose from. That's exactly what you want to win a RWC.

 

[Sword of Justice]

He's 2 years younger than Quade and never done and ACL or Achillies. Ok.

Me too, in fact I've never had any injury other than a fractured toe. Nonsensical argument.

His experience counts for little to nought when it has been a middling to poor experience for the last 5 years or more.

 

[Braveheart81]

Foley's best possible game gets worse for the Wallabies every year his career goes on.

If we select him at this RWC it'll only be for the purposes of saving the furniture. So underwhelming last year and only ever solid for us since 2015.

Results last year with him starting at 10.
L vs NZ 37-39
L vs NZ 14-40
W vs Scotland 16-15
L vs France 29-30
L vs Ireland 10-13

The first NZ test, France test and Ireland test were three of the Wallabies better performances in 2022. We were leading the France test when Foley was replaced late in the game.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect better in 2023 given more time with the squad.

Anyway, we'll see what Eddie Jones does.

 

[qwerty51]

Me too, in fact I've never had any injury other than a fractured toe. Nonsensical argument.

His experience counts for little to nought when it has been a middling to poor experience for the last 5 years or more.

I still prefer Quade but these are ridiculous comments. He nearly beat NZ, Ireland and France, he played Test rugby last year. Quade didn't. He's still killing top flight Japan league - Quade is in 2nd div coming back from a major injury. Foley has a much more recent package that says he's still up to it than Quade.

They'll both get a go in the TRC - let's evaluate from there.

 

[Sword of Justice]

Results last year with him starting at 10.
L vs NZ 37-39
L vs NZ 14-40
W vs Scotland 16-15
L vs France 29-30
L vs Ireland 10-13

The first NZ test, France test and Ireland test were three of the Wallabies better performances in 2022. We were leading the France test when Foley was replaced late in the game.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect better in 2023 given more time with the squad.

Anyway, we'll see what Eddie Jones does.

Does this not provide support to the argument he has lost his composure as a 10 in the final stages of a match?

This is precisely the point I am making, I'd rather chance our arm than accept another valiant loss.

I'd much rather try something and back a young player through adversity. We need to get better at allowing rookies to fail on the pitch and fostering that as a learning experience. Cooper has shown that it's possible to get better from hardships and we haven't done that with many other players. Foley is a known quantity and we shouldn't reward the level of mediocrity that has been established since 2015. There's almost never been a larger sample size to learn from.

 

[cyclopath]

And a Stirling Mortlock... and a Matt Giteau too...

But, with both of those players missing in 2005 Larkham kicked 6 conversions against the Bulls and Stormers.

And Eales.