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Wallabies v All Blacks Sydney

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disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
It doesn't help that we have players like Rodney Blake, Mark Gerrard, Hugh McMeniman, Daniel Heenan & Dan Vickerman all overseas, with our small player pool we need to be hanging on to as much talent as possible.

I also think Phil Waugh still has a place in the Wallaby squad he would be very handy coming on in the last half hour this week to finish the game with dual flyers.

Take out Ma'afu and we get Slipper (OK, not bad) and then Weekes I guess from your post.

I'd still prefer to have Al Baxter or Greg Holmes over Ma'afu, a couple of old heads wouldn't hurt this group.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Add Cowan as a hooker, add Humphries as a lock, these guys are faaaaaar better options than Edmonds and Chisholm in my book.

I totally agree with Gnostic. Injury crisis made much worse by bizarre selections. C'mon people, you know it's true.

You honestly believe Cowan is a better hooking option than Edmonds?

Seriously?

Edmonds may not be test quality but has at least performed well at a Super 14 level... Cowan proved to be a shit Super 14 hooker.

As for Humphries - better option than Chisholm? No.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Add Cowan as a hooker, add Humphries as a lock, these guys are faaaaaar better options than Edmonds and Chisholm in my book.

I totally agree with Gnostic. Injury crisis made much worse by bizarre selections. C'mon people, you know it's true.

Rubbish, Cowan was terrible at Hooker and struggles to hold up his side of the scrum, Humpries is an average S14 lock; he is no where near test level
 
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Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Well, um, Gnostic doesn't actually believe there is an injury crisis, so your concurrence is not total. And Humphries is injured, no? As are a number of the alternatives mentioned earlier.
It isn't one or the other - a Scarfy says a combination of things. I don't disagree that selections have been pretty odd at times.

There is a very long injury list, of that there isn't any doubt. What I objected to and has got lost somewhere is the assertion that there are NO options out there.

FFS we have gone back to Chis at lock yet Al Baxter (yes I know he is now injured) got dropped for, good by the looks of it, for similar performance issues and making the same mistakes. Yes there are injuries, but instead of reverting to the tried and failed go in a different direction. There are options, that is my point, I never implied or meant to imply that they were as good as the top line, point in case nobody would ever pick S. Fainga'a over TPN but he deserve a run and he confirmed what we suspected (we did not know it but had very firm suspicions).
 

Joe Blow

Peter Sullivan (51)
Rubbish, Cowan was terrible at Hooker and struggles to hold up his side of the scrum, Humpries is an average S14 lock; he is no where near test level

The same could be said about most of our second rowers.

Sharpe was a standout in the S14 as was Horwill the previous year. Vickerman was also a cut above.

Simmons, Hand, Byrne, Chisholm, Douglas and Mumm were OK with Van Humphries somewhere in between. He was definitely a better performer and really stood up when Horwill went down.

Van had the ability to step up a level when needed. Isn't that what we look for in the tight five?
Agreed he is at the end of his career but the cupboard was bare through injury and he would have been a good choice IMHO to bring some experience to a young pack.
With some of these guys returning now he will not be required.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
There is a very long injury list, of that there isn't any doubt. What I objected to and has got lost somewhere is the assertion that there are NO options out there.FFS we have gone back to Chis at lock yet Al Baxter (yes I know he is now injured) got dropped for, good by the looks of it, for similar performance issues and making the same mistakes. Yes there are injuries, but instead of reverting to the tried and failed go in a different direction. There are options, that is my point, I never implied or meant to imply that they were as good as the top line, point in case nobody would ever pick S. Fainga'a over TPN but he deserve a run and he confirmed what we suspected (we did not know it but had very firm suspicions).

Indeed. The other dimension that must be aired here is that 'who is Test standard' is a rather subjective matter (as the raging debates here affirm) before the player in question has actually played in a Test (or more). I remember vividly in S14 2009 that many commentators said, with utter conviction, that Cooper would and should never rise above S14 level. Only a handful of months (even weeks) ago, many posters here were decrying Beale as 'showing as not Test standard'. Go back and look at GAGR's earliest markings of Pocock - there were not all 7s and 8s in his early Tests. Higgers (before the latest injury) was in the queue for a go from the bench in SA, and a few months back there were shrieks of dismay that he should even be on the list.

Especially when injuries beckon and you don't have 2 or more XVs of established Test players, that's when well-planned experimentation with strong new candidates for Test use must occur, via both rotating selections of newcomers, and early and complete use of the bench (ideally in home June Tests to not overpower the rookie) so as to optimise assessments of the newcomers. We all now that did not happen to any degree, and has not happened under Deans and co. (except in Blom re bench use). We all know it took _9_ 2010 Tests to start killing off the obvious duds, and using the bench properly.

Gnostic and Scarf are quite correct: there have been credible alternatives, of both established players and new candidates. No one suggests the alternatives were without risk, but that's always the case. The real 'benefit' of a high injury level is that more and better talent might be uncovered through necessity. Saying 'all the alternatives are not of Test standard' is, by definition, almost as speculative as saying 'they might well prove themselves in Tests'. And then, something of a clincher: if our cattle are so severely restrained through injury, how did we manage the hoodoo-cracking away win in Blom, where, it cannot be denied, the newer players - Cooper, Genia, Pocock, etc - were the p.o.d.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I wasn't a member of GaGR back then, but I can tell you that my only concerns about the young blokes we have blooded in the last two seasons were with Cooper (on defence) and Beale. Both have developed brilliantly and that's great.

Genia, Pocock et al, for me looked to have huge potential before they pulled on the jersey.

I think it's also important to remember that there was a natural generational change happening in the setup too. Guys like Morts weren't the players they once were and there was naturally going to be some time needed to find replacements. Some players, like Madness and Gerrard opting to move overseas didn't help either (though thankfully we've not suffered as badly as others in that regard).
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
fp, whatever you say, Van Humphries would play in my team ahead of Chisholm. Stop checking out his guns, mate, and watch him play rugby.

Van covered Victor beautifully when they played this year.
 

Joe Blow

Peter Sullivan (51)
That's just how it happens. As recently as last year many (myself included) were very unhappy about Quade starting for the Wallabies in Berricks injury forced absence on the EOYT. Now look at him. There was something very special about Genia and Pocock from the get go although Deans had tried very hard to make Luke Burgess his first choice. Mind you, Burgess really progressed because of it.
In the young group coming through now with Slipper, Simmons, Daley, Weekes, Higginbotham, McCalman, Douglas, Fitzpatrick, both Fainga'a boys, Davies, Chambers etc etc there will be some gems unearthed.
They need to be given the opportunity to play at a higher level alongside and against quality.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
fp, whatever you say, Van Humphries would play in my team ahead of Chisholm. Stop checking out his guns, mate, and watch him play rugby.

Van covered Victor beautifully when they played this year.

The cool thing about here is that we can agree to disagree. As for Chis, I though he was excellent of Saturday and worked his arse off as a proper tight forward. His guns watching is so two years ago
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
JB, your post actually makes a good point. For all the banging on about alternatives and who has and hasn't been given a chance, there have been a lot of blokes who *have* been given a shot at it. And let's no forget that some of the alternatives have been injured themselves.

Are we guilty of overplaying this whole issue? Possibly yes.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I wasn't a member of GaGR back then, but I can tell you that my only concerns about the young blokes we have blooded in the last two seasons were with Cooper (on defence) and Beale. Both have developed brilliantly and that's great. Genia, Pocock et al, for me looked to have huge potential before they pulled on the jersey.I think it's also important to remember that there was a natural generational change happening in the setup too. Guys like Morts weren't the players they once were and there was naturally going to be some time needed to find replacements. Some players, like Madness and Gerrard opting to move overseas didn't help either (though thankfully we've not suffered as badly as others in that regard).

All good TBH. But what Gnostic, Scarf and me (and others too) argue is that when the cries of 'injuries are killing us' and 'there's no alternatives, no more players to select' etc are combined into a soup of excuses and explanations for Wallaby mediocrity, it lacks rigour and some credibility as: (a) there are/were/have been alternatives that could have been trialled far more assertively (b) the truth of (a) is much exacerbated by a persistence with obvious duds and no developmental bench use and (c) it's actually a number of the 'riskier' newer players that many decried as 'too risky for Tests' only quite recently that have in fact turned out to be the p.o.d. (ie, risks with new selections can pay off).
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
That's a fair enough argument RH, but I would reply with: we *have* taken numerous punts on players who've yet to prove their credentials. To wit: Finger (x2), Simmons, Slipper, Ma'afu and McCalman to name a few (and just this season). If you look over the last two seasons, the list is even larger. I'm not sure I totally buy the argument that Deans has sat on his hands and done nothing. He has introduced many new players to the test team since 2008.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
RedsHappy,

Do you actually think that any of the established players (apart from Giteau vs England) have cost us games this season? Do you honestly think that if they had been replaced with untried players that we would have won anymore games?

For me the issue with Robbie is not is in ability to try new players (don't forget we have the youngest and least experienced team in the 3N), it is more his inability to a) use the bench and b) get the players to play for a whole game. These two issues may well be tied together.
 
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