Wilson
Tim Horan (67)
I too have noticed that we sack coaches when the team performance declines. My theory is that we actually want the team performance to improve, so coaches that disagree with that have to go.
Wallabies v England November 1
- Thread starter TSR
- Start date
stillmissit
John Thornett (49)
The question then Wilson - is it the coach or the players who are at fault. I think that in failure it is always the manager's fault BUT we have had a whole series of managers who have all failed, so it must be the cattle. That is ARU's issue in development and expanding the base. We all know the problems they have had to deal with, mainly a lack of funds due to the above issue.
We are caught in a Gordian Knot.
We are caught in a Gordian Knot.
Major Tom
Chilla Wilson (44)
Depends what we consider a failure and what we consider progress. I want us to win so badly but I also recognize that we seem to be in games a lot more than before. Wins and loses are important but I think we need to temper our expectations.
Ignoto
Geoff Shaw (53)
I dunno Wilson. Looking at the Wallabies level, we had Deans and Chieka do long stints with Link being forced out for non-performance reasons.
Rennie and Eddie have been the only two in close to almost two decades for performance reasons (my brain is fried but I am trying to remember if Connolly was booted out after the 07 RWC failure?).
At Super Rugby you're probably right. The Tahs are trigger happy booting coaches out, so were the Rebels and certain extent the Force.
Have the Brumbies sacked a coach for performance reasons?
The Reds have had an up and down run in the last 20 years with Eddie jumping off like a rat, Mooney, Graham and Stiles all being moved on. But I think the only sacking was Graham with the other two just not having a contract issued?
stillmissit
John Thornett (49)
Understand what you are saying but we have been here + or - a bit each time. Cheika started with a bang and exited with a whimper, Rennie looked good for a while, Deans was eventually brought down, McKenzie was white-anted, Eddie Jones (2) got us back for dumping him, by just about destroying us.
So from 2008 we have been on the same merry-go-round.
I liked Connolly, but he was gone quickly, not sure if it was his call or ARU's. Schmidt is a good coach and there is improvement but I was a manager and I sacked a fair few guys who claimed everything was getting better. So there are no excuses if there are no winners.
Is it too easy to get a gig overseas, so there is no existential threat? Not that we could do anything about it anyway.
stillmissit
John Thornett (49)
One of the things I liked about Mooney was that he put in place the foundations of young players, and took the chop for it, but those players built a great Reds team.
Tomthumb
Jim Lenehan (48)
We beat this England team 12 months ago, scoring 42 points in the process.
Major Tom
Chilla Wilson (44)
Did you answer my question the other day, who would you like coaching the Wallabies?
stillmissit
John Thornett (49)
As Ignoto and I discussed above, is it the new coach syndrome?
stillmissit
John Thornett (49)
I'll have a crack Major, Stephen Larkham by a continental mile.
Major Tom
Chilla Wilson (44)
Fair opinion. Tomthumb and others would argue “what’s he won?” So we’re basically the same point as Kiss.
For me I’m actually more interested in what is the coach’s vision is rather than their history. “Past performance is no guarantee of future results”
Red Runner
Ted Thorn (20)
Didn’t Larkham withdraw from the coaching race? Can’t make him coach if he doesn’t want to be coach.
stillmissit
John Thornett (49)
agree, MT, I also think we need a coach with a big carrot and a short sharp stick. I like Les, he did a good job with the Tahs as D coach. I expect he will completely change the defence system that LL has gifted us with. That will help along with some of the guys coming back, I think we will go OK.
Where's the beef
Larry Dwyer (12)
The coaching thing is done.
Yes I agree we are impatient, but look at the commentary on this chat. It's impatient as well. Deans blooded, Ewen Developed, Checks profited. Rennie held fort, He had the best spring tour in years and was punted. In my view very unfairly. Eddie cleaned out and paved the way for Joe. And make no mistake, Eddie told a few, home truths. Joe is developing for Less to to prosper. The only issue here is Les has a pretty good super team, but they have not become ruthless.
Les will be our coach. I trust and hope that he and joe are talking now and that some of the decisions oe is making are in consultation with Les.
Yes I agree we are impatient, but look at the commentary on this chat. It's impatient as well. Deans blooded, Ewen Developed, Checks profited. Rennie held fort, He had the best spring tour in years and was punted. In my view very unfairly. Eddie cleaned out and paved the way for Joe. And make no mistake, Eddie told a few, home truths. Joe is developing for Less to to prosper. The only issue here is Les has a pretty good super team, but they have not become ruthless.
Les will be our coach. I trust and hope that he and joe are talking now and that some of the decisions oe is making are in consultation with Les.
stillmissit
John Thornett (49)
Yes RR, your right, but I think either before or after the RWC, he will be the coach.
TSR
Simon Poidevin (60)
I dunno. I reckon Carter Gordon is a good example of why we shouldn’t throw young guys to the wolves. Especially playmakers. You and I went back and forward on this two years ago Stillmissit - and it was Gordon we were discussing then (well - I’m pretty sure it was you - apologies if I am mistaken). By the end of the super season I conceded and got onboard with Gordon being good enough despite his age. And look how that turned out. Yes - there was the Jones factor and it was significant. But Gordon still got caught out for not being ready for test football. As did Lolesio before him and Tom Lynagh may be suffering a similiar fate - although his issues seem more physical. Tom Hooper struggled in his first initiation as a test player and guys like Maddocks have come out openly and said it damaged his development. Going back further guys like Hanigan and Skelton also suffered from being thrown in too early. I’m not saying you can’t give guys a taste of it - guys like Wilson, McReight & Valetini all had their issue early but came through it in the longer run. And there are guys like Jorgenson & Sua’ali’i who seem more able to handle it. But they are the minority.
I don’t agree we’ve ever just thrown our best guys in on any large scale. Our best eras have been built around experience, proven test performers. When rookies have come in they’ve mostly been introduced from the bench and had to win their spot in settled teams. Especially the playmakers. Guys like Michael Lynagh, Stephen Larkham and Bernard Foley were brought in young but in different positions and were introduced more progressively, generally from the bench, before they were put in the hot seat. Flatley debuted at 10 but had Gregan inside him and Horan, Howard, Larkham & Tune outside him and a very strong forward pack. Dan Carter was played at 12 before moving to 10 and, from memory, so was Andrew Mehrtens.
I’d argue one of Australia’s big issues for the last 7-8 years has been far too many young guys without the necessary experience. It’s a problem we still haven’t got past. It’s especially been an issue at 10. Our team seems constantly less experienced than our competitors - especially when you strip out a couple of guys like Slipper and White who account for large numbers of test caps.
I’m cautiously optimistic about Gordon - but I don’t see that taking a more cautious approach with him is a bad thing at all.
Edit: actually I was wrong on Mehrtens. At least for his debut. Looks like not only did he start at 10 but he played a stormer on debut. It was against Canada though.
Last edited:
Red Runner
Ted Thorn (20)
Gordon will be a different player away from Eddie Jones. Self confidence is something that has been a struggle of his since early junior footy. The last thing he needed was a manipulative coach with an inability to connect with the individual. I think the personal touch of Joe and Les will be good for him.
TSR
Simon Poidevin (60)
I agree 100%. That’s really my point. He didn’t suddenly lose his talent. His confidence was clearly knocked about. A bit more maturity would have at least helped him deal with that.
TSR, there are more coaching misfires than player misfires. Eddie Jones may have progressed players into the World Cup team before that were seasoned. Dropping Quade Cooper was the misfire of all misfires leaving one flyhalf in the squad, who hadn’t even played an international game the previous year. There were crucial admissions in that squad but the players that got thrown to the wolves will become better players emotionally in years to come. There is no point reminiscing on the atrocities and now for Rugby Australia to make sure their coaching channels are strong and each state is financial so that the coaching improves and we retain quality players.