Waratahs 2011
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Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
This article stinks of Growden being backgrounded by one of the Tah coaches. Comments like "there is considerable support at the Waratahs...." lead me to think that he is either just big-noting himself (not an unlikely scenario) or one of the Tahs coaches/selectors has decided that backgrounding journalists might take some pressure off by showing they are doing "something".
The stupidity of pissing Palmer off so badly that he went to the Brumbies is now all too evident. I wasn't the only one incandescent when it happened. Now we have no real option after the Crusaders reality check. Paddy Ryan is too green to take on the Crusaders pack and Kepu did not cover himself in glory last week when moved to THP. So Baxter is our only real alternative. We need to move quickly on two fronts: try to convince Palmer to break his two year deal with the Brumbies (I believe he has grounds because of the promises made just weeks ago to Alexander guaranteeing him the tight head position next year) or looking for a "marquee" non-Aussie THP that we can bring in post world cup to bridge the gap between Baxter, who can't go on too many more years, and the rise of Ryan, Ulugia and the next generation.
That's not to say that Ryan shouldn't get game time this year but it should be off the bench and ideally against weaker scrums like the Rebels, Force and Reds. He needs to be brought along slowly - he's a THP and won't reach his potential for another five years.
Hangers appears to be being left out to dry. He had a bad day at the office last Friday but has been in the Tah program for years and has proved to be a reliable 10, albeit without the flair that others might have. He looked very short of a run which is not surprising given he missed most of Shute last year and has only had a couple of cameo's this year in trials. He should get serious off-the-bench time in the next few weeks against the Cheetahs, Brumbies and Chiefs (not the top teams in the league) to get him back up to speed. He fell off the horse, he needs to get straight back on. After those games is the time to decide whether to make Kurtley the reserve 10 or not. I'd actually start him against the Cheetahs and bring Barnes back via the bench.
The other thing that is essential is that TPN and Waugh should NOT play against the Cheetahs and Brumbies, and resume from the bench against the Chiefs. So far, Hickey's record is that he selects people to play injured and doesn't seem to realise that it only damages players further. Its the head coach's job to pick the team and he needs to do that in the context of the whole season. Players will always try to come back early, no one wants to open up their spot for someone else, but its the head coach's job to prioritise selection for the team for the whole season. Waugh and TPN having a month off now will have them recovered in time for the big games ahead. So the next two games should have Fitzpatrick and McCutcheon starting and Alcock and Seymour on the bench. I wouldn't give Seymour any more than ten minutes in either game, its time for Fitzpatrick to step up and prove he is the number three Australian hooker behind TPN and Moore. We need to see McCutcheon and Alcock head-to-head against Super class opposition and this is the ideal time with the Cheetahs and Brumbies coming up. Thank goodness the coming three weeks have us playing the weaker teams in the three conferences. You can't do this sort of thing against the Blues, Bulls or Sharks (and maybe this year the Clan, we'll see).
The stupidity of pissing Palmer off so badly that he went to the Brumbies is now all too evident. I wasn't the only one incandescent when it happened. Now we have no real option after the Crusaders reality check. Paddy Ryan is too green to take on the Crusaders pack and Kepu did not cover himself in glory last week when moved to THP. So Baxter is our only real alternative. We need to move quickly on two fronts: try to convince Palmer to break his two year deal with the Brumbies (I believe he has grounds because of the promises made just weeks ago to Alexander guaranteeing him the tight head position next year) or looking for a "marquee" non-Aussie THP that we can bring in post world cup to bridge the gap between Baxter, who can't go on too many more years, and the rise of Ryan, Ulugia and the next generation.
That's not to say that Ryan shouldn't get game time this year but it should be off the bench and ideally against weaker scrums like the Rebels, Force and Reds. He needs to be brought along slowly - he's a THP and won't reach his potential for another five years.
Hangers appears to be being left out to dry. He had a bad day at the office last Friday but has been in the Tah program for years and has proved to be a reliable 10, albeit without the flair that others might have. He looked very short of a run which is not surprising given he missed most of Shute last year and has only had a couple of cameo's this year in trials. He should get serious off-the-bench time in the next few weeks against the Cheetahs, Brumbies and Chiefs (not the top teams in the league) to get him back up to speed. He fell off the horse, he needs to get straight back on. After those games is the time to decide whether to make Kurtley the reserve 10 or not. I'd actually start him against the Cheetahs and bring Barnes back via the bench.
The other thing that is essential is that TPN and Waugh should NOT play against the Cheetahs and Brumbies, and resume from the bench against the Chiefs. So far, Hickey's record is that he selects people to play injured and doesn't seem to realise that it only damages players further. Its the head coach's job to pick the team and he needs to do that in the context of the whole season. Players will always try to come back early, no one wants to open up their spot for someone else, but its the head coach's job to prioritise selection for the team for the whole season. Waugh and TPN having a month off now will have them recovered in time for the big games ahead. So the next two games should have Fitzpatrick and McCutcheon starting and Alcock and Seymour on the bench. I wouldn't give Seymour any more than ten minutes in either game, its time for Fitzpatrick to step up and prove he is the number three Australian hooker behind TPN and Moore. We need to see McCutcheon and Alcock head-to-head against Super class opposition and this is the ideal time with the Cheetahs and Brumbies coming up. Thank goodness the coming three weeks have us playing the weaker teams in the three conferences. You can't do this sort of thing against the Blues, Bulls or Sharks (and maybe this year the Clan, we'll see).
I would start Paddy Ryan @ THP, if Baxter went down, instead of Kepu, any day of the week. I do wonder how much longer Baxter will carry on and how the Tahs will manage that transition.
Ryan is pretty effective and Kepu has never been more than adequate at THP.
Fitzpatrick needs plenty of work on his tight game and scrummaging.
Palmer is gone, we move on, he was ready and needed to move somewhere to get game time now - development is like that - timing is everything.
Ryan is pretty effective and Kepu has never been more than adequate at THP.
Fitzpatrick needs plenty of work on his tight game and scrummaging.
Palmer is gone, we move on, he was ready and needed to move somewhere to get game time now - development is like that - timing is everything.
W
WB3
Guest
Largely well said Hawko, though I was under the impression that Barnes' injury was a reasonably mild concussion. Was he that concussed that he would need to be eased back in? Given how well Kurtley has adapted to fullback I am very reticent to see him swap positions for any length of time, though his game sense seems brilliant enough that it mightn't actually adversely effect him at all.
Also, MASSIVE agree that TPN and Waugh should rest for at least the Cheetah's week. Respect for putting their hand up to play hurt, but it serves both their and Australian rugby's interests better to have them rest.
It is also worrying to see the gulf between the 3 waratah props of choice and their back ups. I am not actually well informed on the likes of Ryan and Ulugia so the question remains, regardless of the fact that they have years before they reach their peak, are they ready to be exposed at this level and do they have the potential to make it? I assume Lee Grant knows, wherever he is (looks into the distance).
Also, MASSIVE agree that TPN and Waugh should rest for at least the Cheetah's week. Respect for putting their hand up to play hurt, but it serves both their and Australian rugby's interests better to have them rest.
It is also worrying to see the gulf between the 3 waratah props of choice and their back ups. I am not actually well informed on the likes of Ryan and Ulugia so the question remains, regardless of the fact that they have years before they reach their peak, are they ready to be exposed at this level and do they have the potential to make it? I assume Lee Grant knows, wherever he is (looks into the distance).
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
I expect Barnes will be ready to start against the Cheetahs and if we always pick our no. 1 team regardless then he'd start. But I am not thinking like that - I have a much more squad/team based view. Hangers needs game time, the Cheetahs are not easybeats but they are not the Crusaders. So I would start Hangers to let him get his confidence back and bring Barnes off the bench as and when he's needed. That rebuilds the squad strength rather than just building the 15 strength, which on Hickey's past history is his modus operandi.
I am of the view that if we had given game time to both Baxter and Palmer last year, then Palmer would have felt like he was a valued part of the squad and the overall squad would have become stronger. Instead we left Palmer to rot, he went to the Brumbies and now looks like the best THP in Oz. Hickey, by insisting that Waugh plays every week regardless of his injury status, did the same thing to Beau Robinson and risks doing it to McCutcheon and Alcock. Conceivably if TPN is played every week then Fitzpatrick will want to move next year or the year after too. It seems like the safe thing to do to play the best 15 every week regardless, but over time it weakens the squad through injury recovery and degrading back-up morale.
Its a bit different in Shute, where you've got four senior teams plus colts playing each week. There you can play in reserves and feel part of the club, always putting your best foot forward in the hope of getting elevated to firsts. The back-up comp Super is very mickey mouse as can be seen from the fact that the teams change drastically from week to week and it finishes half way through the Super comp anyway.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
I said as much about Ryan being brought in last week when I said that Baxter is as good as gone, justified or not he either gets penalised or opponents get away with illegal tactics against him. Given that this is the case it is time for the Tahs to move on and look at alternatives.
I feel sorry for Baxter because IMO he does not deserve to have his career ended by the referees which has what has basically happened.
Ryan is a very good THP. Kepu was never considered by anybody to be a THP but rather a good LHP who can cover THP in the event of injury. He should not be picked to start at THP.
I would actually like to see a front row of:-
1. Kepu/Robinson
2. Fitzpatrick
3.Ryan
16. Ulugia
17. Kepu/Robinson
Ryan can get 40 or 60 minutes, and Kepu can then go to THP. Fitzpatrick to have a chance to make amends with Ulugia as back-up.
I feel sorry for Baxter because IMO he does not deserve to have his career ended by the referees which has what has basically happened.
Ryan is a very good THP. Kepu was never considered by anybody to be a THP but rather a good LHP who can cover THP in the event of injury. He should not be picked to start at THP.
I would actually like to see a front row of:-
1. Kepu/Robinson
2. Fitzpatrick
3.Ryan
16. Ulugia
17. Kepu/Robinson
Ryan can get 40 or 60 minutes, and Kepu can then go to THP. Fitzpatrick to have a chance to make amends with Ulugia as back-up.
W
WB3
Guest
Hawko, well said, and having reread your first post I agree entirely (as you weren't suggesting Beale start at 10 like I thought you were initially) but would take the option of Barnes starting and bringing Hangers on for the second half; its easier to hand on a winning margin and ask him to maintain it than ask Barnes to try and mont a rescue mission which is the worst possible scenario.
As for Fitzpatrick, Alcock and McCutcheon, I can only wholeheartedly agree, especially in the case of TPN where his bruising style means rotating him between a bench and starting position might add some longevity to his career/campaign (could work in the Wallabies too with Moore and him sharing the duties once they figure out who starts against who).
Gnostic, I don't know anything about Ryan so this argument is largely emotional, but we can't drop Baxter for him. The bloke is a stalwart and at his best is an excellent THP. It would be a horrendous injustice to bow to the weight of (largely incorrect) refereeing and end the career of one of NSW's finest servants. Surely I can see having Ryan rotate with him to give the kid some experience but I could never drop the Fuse cold and if, as he did in last years S14, he can find some vintage form then his selection is warranted.
As for Fitzpatrick, Alcock and McCutcheon, I can only wholeheartedly agree, especially in the case of TPN where his bruising style means rotating him between a bench and starting position might add some longevity to his career/campaign (could work in the Wallabies too with Moore and him sharing the duties once they figure out who starts against who).
Gnostic, I don't know anything about Ryan so this argument is largely emotional, but we can't drop Baxter for him. The bloke is a stalwart and at his best is an excellent THP. It would be a horrendous injustice to bow to the weight of (largely incorrect) refereeing and end the career of one of NSW's finest servants. Surely I can see having Ryan rotate with him to give the kid some experience but I could never drop the Fuse cold and if, as he did in last years S14, he can find some vintage form then his selection is warranted.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
I have been watching Ryan closely for the Junior Tahs and would have no qualms about starting him against the Cheetahs directly opposite Oosthuizen, nor especially in the Brumbies game opposing Alexander. The Chiefs the following week are no great shakes in the scrum either.
But let's see him against the Cheetahs first. He looks as fit as a fiddle and has been good on goal line defence and around the park, except for dropping a couple of balls.
As for Fitzpatrick - Let's not forget that TPN was criticised for his scrummaging at first; so give him a go. I don't know how good a scrummager he is going to be with those skinny calves, but let's see. The negative for Ryan may be that Fitzpatrick will be starting in his first Super game also.
Agree with Gnostic that Kepu is not a THP but one who can play there at a pinch and that he shouldn't start there. I'd like to see Ryan as a LHP one of these days to see if he can handle the playing at a pinch situation there.
I haven't seen him with the 1 jersey since his Joeys and Oz Schools days and he was terrific. Mind you with the Schools scrum laws you can't really tell if a lad is going to be a good scrummager as a senior player, let alone if a LHP is going to play THP as a senior, then be able to go back to LHP.
But let's see him against the Cheetahs first. He looks as fit as a fiddle and has been good on goal line defence and around the park, except for dropping a couple of balls.
As for Fitzpatrick - Let's not forget that TPN was criticised for his scrummaging at first; so give him a go. I don't know how good a scrummager he is going to be with those skinny calves, but let's see. The negative for Ryan may be that Fitzpatrick will be starting in his first Super game also.
Agree with Gnostic that Kepu is not a THP but one who can play there at a pinch and that he shouldn't start there. I'd like to see Ryan as a LHP one of these days to see if he can handle the playing at a pinch situation there.
I haven't seen him with the 1 jersey since his Joeys and Oz Schools days and he was terrific. Mind you with the Schools scrum laws you can't really tell if a lad is going to be a good scrummager as a senior player, let alone if a LHP is going to play THP as a senior, then be able to go back to LHP.
D
daz
Guest
Well, I knew it wouldn't take long before you and I would lock horns again, Gnostic.
That statement above is perhaps true, but ask yourself this: Baxter may have penalised himself out of his international career (whether by reality or perception is largely irrelevant), but if he was truly world class, wouldn't he take note of the perception and adjust accordingly? He just doesn't seem to change his style to make the refs happy, even though he is under the microscope and is being continually pinged.
Cream rises to the top, regardless of circumstance. Baxter seems to be more of a lumpy yoghurt....
D
daz
Guest
I hope to God Deans is on the phone to Hickey with one simple statement: Don't you fucking dare, because if he misses the RWC because of this, I will refer any and all post-match questions to the Tahs coaching staff.
:nta: I will bet that Baxter only has issues against the Blues in the S15 with Mr Woodcock.
The rest? He will be fine to dominant.
For all this hand wringing he has only struggled in the last few years against the technically effective props from NZ (namely Woodcock & Crockett) who can scrummage as low as he gets.
The Tahs scrum has been rock solid against the rest. That said I would like to see some player development of the props. The future replacement for Baxter who can't have too many games/seasons left, must be given some time on the front line.
The rest? He will be fine to dominant.
For all this hand wringing he has only struggled in the last few years against the technically effective props from NZ (namely Woodcock & Crockett) who can scrummage as low as he gets.
The Tahs scrum has been rock solid against the rest. That said I would like to see some player development of the props. The future replacement for Baxter who can't have too many games/seasons left, must be given some time on the front line.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Well, I knew it wouldn't take long before you and I would lock horns again, Gnostic.
That statement above is perhaps true, but ask yourself this: Baxter may have penalised himself out of his international career (whether by reality or perception is largely irrelevant), but if he was truly world class, wouldn't he take note of the perception and adjust accordingly? He just doesn't seem to change his style to make the refs happy, even though he is under the microscope and is being continually pinged.
Cream rises to the top, regardless of circumstance. Baxter seems to be more of a lumpy yoghurt....
Yes all is now right with the universe.
Baxter has adjusted his technique considerably since his early days when he was very heavily penalised, after taking over from Darwin. He has adjuested a few times throughout his career and I have no doubt he could do so again. The question though isn't IMO what Baxter does or does not do, it is as you said the perception. In a lot of cases reality is meaningless the perception is what really matters especially when you consider that the perception of the one with the whistle is all that matters in this case.
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
Fatprop,
You should consider what your posts will do to the blood pressure of Tahs fans before posting such information. I've had to immediately double my medication dosage!
Mate, if he gets injured, he gets injured.
They all play wounded, they all manage those injuries.
If they all had to be 100% fit to play, we couldn't fill the teams.
Most of the time this works, but some time it won't, just like the rest of life.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/greens-want-cheika-in-canberra-20110310-1bpru.html
I wonder who has been given the Nickname of Harvey? I wonder if it was Dave Dennis - his defensive performance last week was very much below his usual standard, or Hangers who did his absolute best to earn Wallabies selection as a worse defender than Quade.
I wonder who has been given the Nickname of Harvey? I wonder if it was Dave Dennis - his defensive performance last week was very much below his usual standard, or Hangers who did his absolute best to earn Wallabies selection as a worse defender than Quade.
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
I'm not sure it would have been Dennis, he made 19 tackles.
I like it that people were really pissed off about what happened last week and said so. That sometimes has the effect of strengthening the team's backbone after the initial hurt has been absorbed (as in "I'll show you. I'll never play so badly again that you think I have no interest"). It screams out that the Tahs are deadly serious about winning this year.
I hate it that some dickhead reported it back to Growden.
#1 Tah
Chilla Wilson (44)
Baxter and Waugh both said they have one more season left after this one at the season launch
MrMouse
Bob Loudon (25)
I'd be pretty surprised if it was Dave. As Hawko said, he made the most tackles of any Tah so it's hard to call that disinterested. More likely to have been a second-rower I suspect.
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