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Waratahs 2017

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Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Agree totally TOCC, but also as I've always argued it enforcement of the rules must be in the spirit of the rules, they cannot pick and choose as they please to allow certain players to sign a contract in a season ie 2017 to play in 2018 and become eligible to play tests in 2017. They undermined the whole integrity of the system before the Giteau rule with Elsom, Vickerman, Douglas and Mumm.

Ultimately the integrity of the system is far more important than access to an individual for a few games. This is one of the major problems with the ARU, their systems across all areas lack integrity and they are surprised that nobody trusts them and they find themselves in a position where they can no longer manage without legal challenges (Force and Rebels) and rebellion (SRU running Shute SHield finals in conflict with NRC) and continued player drain.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
With regard to coaching, and who could take over from Gibson if indeed he must be replaced, it's not as simple as picking Simon Cron just because he's worked wonders with Norths and did quite well with the Rays. Same goes with Coleman, though equally just because you've been an assistant coach doesn't mean you're the right person for the job - think Foley, think Graham, think Gibson. needed to be successful (some would argue they needed even less carrot and more stick, others not).


I'd like to see McKenzie coaching again - the tams he coached were good watch.

Or look what the Brmbies did with Jake White - another coach who had success and a style.

My concern is coaching structured structure - rather than rugby. You watch NZ games it flows, watch our and it is in blocks, that stop and start.
 

dru

Tim Horan (67)
I'd like to see McKenzie coaching again - the tams he coached were good watch.

Or look what the Brmbies did with Jake White - another coach who had success and a style.

My concern is coaching structured structure - rather than rugby. You watch NZ games it flows, watch our and it is in blocks, that stop and start.

Have to second that. Surely enough water under the bridge to make it worth while for someone to chase him down. It would be fabulous to have Link back in Aus.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
My concern is coaching structured structure - rather than rugby. You watch NZ games it flows, watch our and it is in blocks, that stop and start.

NZ rugby is very structured, it flows because of the effort to stick to their structures and 10 years of building the inerrant skills required to play to that structure
 

Twoilms

Trevor Allan (34)
After his last experience, I think he would have ZERO interest in returning to the cesspit of Aus rugby. He's a lost resource, sadly.

And that would be the case if Australian rugby wasn't currently terminal. We have all the appeal of a stale shit at the moment.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I'd like to see McKenzie coaching again - the tams he coached were good watch.



Or look what the Brmbies did with Jake White - another coach who had success and a style.



My concern is coaching structured structure - rather than rugby. You watch NZ games it flows, watch our and it is in blocks, that stop and start.


No they weren't. They were a more efficient version of the Hickey/Foley Tahs. Don't forget the collapse in attendance started with Link at the Tahs. He got punted for a reason, it was just stupidity that didn't set out the requirements of a pleasing fan winning game plan to the Hickey/Foley axis. Your first two paragraphs contradict totally the last one.

That said I do wish he hadn't been lost to Australian Rugby, especially not how it happened.
 

Micheal

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Reflecting on both tonight and seasons past, the Waratahs have always had a squad littered with talent but they seem to be perpetually lacking in any sort of professional attitude or intent.

Cheika turned up in 2013 and got working on it straight away, but even then, it took an entire season of failure and a squad clean out to turn it around. But he did turn it around, and what ensued? Badda bing badda boom - we wont the whole fuckin' thing playing some amazing, exciting football.

Gibson, like many of his predecessors, hasn't been as successful in addressing this core, underlying rot and it has swept throughout the squad once again.

So where does this attitude problem come from?

Well, where do the players come from? Off the top of my head alone:

Sandell, Ryan, Latu, Robertson, Mumm, Skelton, Phipps, Gordon and Foley all came from the Sydney University pathway. Many of them were lauded schoolboy or u20 talents. A few notables weren't, and really had to fight to break into the scene. Foley is one of these players.

From Randwick we have Kepu, Horwitz, Hanigan, Kellaway, Deegan, Beale (soon anyway) and R. Robinon.

From Manly we have Lucas and Hooper.

From Norths we have Hegarty, Clark, Simone, Ta'avao and Wells.

As evident, the vast majority of our squad, past and present, comes from four dominant sides within the Shute Shield, with the largest concentration being from Randwick and Sydney University (historically the two strongest sides).

What does this mean? I personally think it has two main implications:

1. Average players look great in great sides. Perhaps we aren't recruiting the best talent, but simply recruiting those with the best highlight reels.

2. How many trials and tribulations have our squad really been through?

Imagine you're Andrew Kellaway (perhaps it is a bit unfair of me to single out a player, especially considering he didn't play tonight, but bear with me):

In high school you played three seasons for an amazingly dominant Scots 1st XV. This earned you multiple years of selection in GPS XVs, who dominated their CAS / CHS counterparts. In turn, this earned you selection in the NSW XVs, who again dominated all other state teams, and this earned you selection in the Australian schoolboys side for two years running.

As an outside back you're absolutely stoked as all the go-forward in the world has netted you 100s of tries.

A couple of years down the line and you're now in club-land, playing 1st grade for Randwick against Parramatta. The half back puts up a box kick, and you're exhausted from a linebreak you made earlier. Do you chase it hard until your lungs feel like their about to burst?

Probably not. Why? Because the guy fielding the kick will simply end up running into a line of ex-Australian schoolboys who, even if they are walking, will likely make the tackle. Its someone else's problem.

Even if he does manage to break the line and score a try, does it really matter? Your team is likely to put 50+ on them and therefore the odd piece of brilliance from the opposition really doesn't affect you too much.

Instead you lazily jog into place to regain enough energy so that next time you get the ball you can turn on the after burners once more to ensure you score a try scintillating enough to be included in the highlight reel that will eventually win you a pro-contract.

You've now got that pro-contract, and you're playing the Kings. The halfback puts up a box kick, and again you're faced with the decision to chase, or not chase. What do you do?

Same thing you've always done - lazily jog after the ball. Why? Partly because its what you've done your whole life, and partly because at the back of your mind you want to make a mean linebreak later in the game to get Cheika's attention and a call-up to the Wallabies squad.

Now, as I said, its very harsh for me to pick on Kellaway, given that he didn't play tonight, but he simply provides a very good example of a much-lauded schoolboy talent who really hasn't amounted to much since then.

For me, it seems that the players with the best attitudes come from non-Schoolboy, non-"Big 4 club" backgrounds, although there are exceptions to these rules.

Perhaps we need a systematic overhaul of the pathways that feed into the Tahs, because tonight simply wasn't fucking good enough. Would a draft for graduating schoolboys into Shute Shield clubs work? I'm sick of the talent being hoarded at certain clubs - it's not good for anyone.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Perhaps we need a systematic overhaul of the pathways that feed into the Tahs, because tonight simply wasn't fucking good enough. Would a draft for graduating schoolboys into Shute Shield clubs work? I'm sick of the talent being hoarded at certain clubs - it's not good for anyone.


Reading from The Book of Pfitzy again I see. ;)

Welcome to Poido and Pappy's Answer To Everything: chuck more money at the system that is eating itself to death.

Let's remember that Eastwood are planning to sell up at TG and move further northwest.

So they'll hoover up any talent for a pittance a week, spend the $30M windfall from the sale of the ground on premierships, and add nothing to the landscape.

Yay rugby.
 

Rugby Survivor

Ward Prentice (10)
Michael I could not agree more with your analysis. Kellaway is a great player and would make representative honours no matter where he played.
However when has he really been put under pressure before making Super rugby.
It is a problem with our structure and lack of competition at the elite level.
You only have to look at the Sydney Colts competition to see that the dominance of one club before Randwick break the mould has not helped to prepare players to the next level. That Randwick team coincidentally had Kellaway, Deegan, Hanigan who are all now Super rugby players.
How are we preparing players for the high pressure and high intensity nature of the next level when they have come through a system where they dominate at the junior or colts level.
What good is it having all the strong players at one or two clubs who are never put under pressure and when they step up to the next level they don't know how to handle it.
Rugby has a systemic problem and we need to fix it. We need stronger competition across all levels of rugby. We need those players to be busting their gut week in week out no matter what competition they are playing in.
The best players maintain their skill level under pressure and when they are stuffed towards the end of a game. They can execute when it matters because they have dealt with such situations over their career.
Kellaway and others have been part of dominant teams and have not been subjected to that same level of pressure growing up.
It continues now with Uni 1st Colts beating Randwick last week who are supposedly the next best team in the competition 69 to 5.
We need to make our competitions stronger and we need to produce rugby players who have been exposed to tough situations rather than running roughshod over opposition.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
You've now got that pro-contract......


Regardless of where the players have "played" their club rugby, if they ever really have, these five words are the crux of the whole thing for. I have found this time and time again over my working life where trades and jobs have been "professionalised" by ladder climbers getting themselves paid ridiculous money to formulate nothing courses to make said jobs and trades "professional". The actual outcomes gained from the new professionals have almost always been of lower standard than that produced by the former non-professionals who did the job without the bits of paper.

I watched and having the bits of paper myself saw a vast majority of those around me thinking great things of themselves having their bits of paper and getting paid on that, but still couldn't do half the job the bits of paper said they could, but they got paid and we all pay for it in terms of outcomes. However the management cannot see what is wrong because they have employed the "professionals" with the qualifications and these people having achieved their qualifications do very little in terms of real outcomes oriented development, they just keep pushing out the superficial paper based KPI "learnings" to keep up the faux professionalism they have gained. Real outcomes never come into it.

This is Australian Rugby, they are paid professional wages, they do nothing but train and have meetings and performance is generally very poor except for exceptional events. What outcomes do the players, coaches and managers get from all this performance? An increased media deal and further inflated salaries. The actual performances in Australian Rugby (and elsewhere) do not indicate truly professional systems. Rugby in Australia has built a Ponzi scheme and its now collapsing.
 

Kenny Powers

Ron Walden (29)
What does this mean? I personally think it has two main implications:

1. Average players look great in great sides. Perhaps we aren't recruiting the best talent, but simply recruiting those with the best highlight reels.

2. How many trials and tribulations have our squad really been through?





Excellent post, and the whole have and have not's is not just a Shute Shield problem it starts in Junior Rugby.

Where size is value over skill. NZ solved this problem by having weight based gradings.

Where attacking ball in hand skills are valued over defensive off the ball skills. NZ acknowledge about 50% of game is spent defending and coach and develop players skills accordingly.

See plenty of kids who are great in attack, step, dummies, speed but go missing in defense, and this is tolerated at Super level.
 
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Pass it to Dunning!

Bob Loudon (25)
The Tahs won the comp mainly because of Potgieter. Plus Folau, of course. Neither a local club product.

The 2014 Tahs team is worlds apart from the current side. Robinson, TPN, Kepu, Douglas, Potgieter, Hoiles, Hooper, Palu, Phipps, Foley, Beale, Ashley-Cooper, Alofa, Folau.

Only three of those players played last night in the starting side. The Tahs in 2014 had a great team of mature in-form players and a great coach. The current side are immature, out-of-form and with a bad coach.
 

Spieber

Bob Loudon (25)
Friday night's performance was awful. Move Western Force to Sydney (especially their coach), keep Latu, Robertson, Hanigan, Hooper, Holloway, Gordon, Foley and get rid of the rest. Folau can move to Auckland and be happy with his gf.
 
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