Waratahs v Reds Rd 18 Sat 13th June 2015

[Merrow]

Then we're all a fucking pack of little hypocrites, aren't we?

You couldn't possibly know how much restraint is needed after you posting a comment like that

 

[fatprop]

As per usual we saw a few individual flashes of Brilliance from Cooper, but he couldn't orchestrate the Reds backline into anything vaguely threatening.

That's the difference between Foley and QC (Quade Cooper) at 10 - even the 2011 Reds backline was there as a platform for Cooper to perform off, whereas Foley is there to unlock the potential of those around him - including forward runners.

Partly Cooper (I guess) but a lot more about the coaching and expectations of work rate from both the backs and forwards.

I reckon if Cooper had a team around him prepared to make the effort to run those insides lines and dummy runs outside; and general getting off their arses and back in play attitude, in a known and agreed structure that Foley enjoys; he would have the same type of outcomes.

But with forwards not accurately cleaning out and getting back into play and available too slowly; and backs standing statically waiting for wide money balls, he is/was screwed

 

[fatprop]

Is this intended to be bait?

Quade had a poor game but nothing NSW did was because of Foley.

except for 3 of their 4 tries ............................

 

[cyclopath]

Partly Cooper (I guess) but a lot more about the coaching and expectations of work rate from both the backs and forwards.

I reckon if Cooper had a team around him prepared to make the effort to run those insides lines and dummy runs outside; and general getting off their arses and back in play attitude, in a known and agreed structure that Foley enjoys; he would have the same type of outcomes.

But with forwards not accurately cleaning out and getting back into play and available too slowly; and backs standing statically waiting for wide money balls, he is/was screwed

Spot on. It is mostly other factors, but a little bit him too. I hope his confidence isn't shot when he comes into the Wallaby fold - we need him to be confident and proactive. I'm sure Cheika can get into his head with good effect. I'm expecting to see a different QC (Quade Cooper) come Test time.

 

[Pfitzy]

You couldn't possibly know how much restraint is needed after you posting a comment like that

Why? Did I exclude myself from that comment somehow? Scoey got it, and I'm not sure how you missed it. You seem accomplished with the emoji interface here so I'm not sure how to missed the smiley face I put on the end, either.

OR it could be the fact that you're so ready to jump on any perceived injustice, any imagined criticism of the Brumbies, that you lack the patience and discipline to objectively analyse the opinions and comments of others.

But we've sailed this ship far enough from the topic, so in conclusion: whatever.

 

[Merrow]

Why? Did I exclude myself from that comment somehow? Scoey got it, and I'm not sure how you missed it. You seem accomplished with the emoji interface here so I'm not sure how to missed the smiley face I put on the end, either.

OR it could be the fact that you're so ready to jump on any perceived injustice, any imagined criticism of the Brumbies, that you lack the patience and discipline to objectively analyse the opinions and comments of others.

But we've sailed this ship far enough from the topic, so in conclusion: whatever.

Didn't miss it sunshine, a subtle attempt at humour is all it was. Sorry if you couldn't see it.

OR it could be the fact that you're so ready to jump on any perceived injustice, any imagined criticism of the Waratahs, that you lack the patience and discipline to objectively analyse the opinions and comments of others.

 

[ChargerWA]

Oh look, a dick measuring contest online. Where do I sign up?

 

[Merrow]

Oh look, a dick measuring contest online. Where do I sign up?

Be a pretty unfair contest. I don't have one and Pfitzy's is apparently about 6 foot 2.

 

[TahDan]

On a less related note to the game itself, can anyone tell me when our teams stopped wearing their traditional strips for derbies? I didn't really pay attention to it last year because the strips are pretty well traditional for the Tahs and Reds for the past few years anyway, but I do remember the Reds used to wear a proper maroon jersey when playing us or the Brumbies for a long time.

They ought to bring that back, and in fact they reds ought to wear something closer to maroon anyway.


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[Gagger]

So Foley is a player who unlocks the potential of players around him yet Quade is a player who uses the players around him to perform off?

This comment seems rather subjective and I can't quite grasp the concept, Quade's long passing game brings his outside backs into the game where other fly-halts can't, likewise Foley uses the dominant forward pack and his big outside backs as decoys for him to on occasion attack the line.


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I think you grasped the concept - you just don't like it!

I remember the Reds coaches saying as much in 2011 - "we've got a simple set pattern that Quade can then improvise on top of" (paraphrased)

Clearly that worked in 2011, but hasn't since. It was also a problem at Deans' Wallabies where there was no discernable pattern - or one that worked anyway - and Quade was largely at sea, especially against the best opposition, unable to add his skill set in a winning effect.

My observation therefore is that Quade struggles to orchestrate a backline in a way that makes the most out of it and the team. It's not the nature of his game. He can do things with the ball and one-on-one space no-one else can - but these work off a team that is performing, they don't make the team perform.

Take the cut-out passes you cite - by the far the majority of the time when thrown they're not the best option as they just allow defences to drift. They're awesome pieces of skill, look great and every now and again make magic - but catch, draw and pass is almost always a better option for the team.

Then, if you look at a Foley or a Carter type of 10 - an orchestrator - they don't work on top of a set pattern, they are the pattern. If the pattern isn't working they can alter it, or fix it with their play.

Take the number of times you see Foley receive dodgy ball, asses his options, and then head down hit the line, knowing that in those situations if he can make or bust the gainline the rest of the team can get back into pattern without losing tempo. In these situations Cooper will either refuse the ball and let the pace drop, or go on a fishing expedition sideways, looking for a chance to use one of his great skills. Against good oppo, that almost always ends up with the team in a worse position.

The reason I write all this is not to do Cooper down. He's a great player and in a team already performing, can be devastating.

What I really object to are idiotic comments like this -

Is this intended to be bait?

Quade had a poor game but nothing NSW did was because of Foley.

that usually go together with the assessment that Foley and Phipps "are just not test standard", despite the fact they've now steered the Tahs into the Super rugby finals for the second year running. Why it's no fluke? Because the reason the Tahs are there is the pattern/tempo they play and Phipps and Foley are fundamental to that. They orchestrate the team

The next comment I object to is blaming the Reds pack, and now rest of backline - anyone but QC (Quade Cooper) and Genia - for where they are. Yes, the team isn't playing to the level they were in 2011, but the problem to a large degree is that - skilful players as they are - QC (Quade Cooper) and Genia can't orchestrate them to.

 

[Brumby Runner]

If Cooper had somebody actually running around him he could probably unlock some potential. The backline structure is fucking woeful.

That Dennis try was due to a great line by Dennis and foley taking the right option.

Cooper had very little chance to take the right option, as there seldom was somebody running that line.

That's true @TWAS but he didn't really look interested to me and pretty much just shovelled the ball on without any sleight of hand at all. Or was that the game plan?

But seriously, he looked like he wanted to be some place else. I really expect to see a huge lift in his performance once he gets away from the Reds' team environment and into the Wallabies.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Partly Cooper (I guess) but a lot more about the coaching and expectations of work rate from both the backs and forwards.

I reckon if Cooper had a team around him prepared to make the effort to run those insides lines and dummy runs outside; and general getting off their arses and back in play attitude, in a known and agreed structure that Foley enjoys; he would have the same type of outcomes.

But with forwards not accurately cleaning out and getting back into play and available too slowly; and backs standing statically waiting for wide money balls, he is/was screwed

We should get a chance to see if this is so when they share the No 10 duties with the Wallabies in the RC. I am hopeful that Quade will re-find his brilliance with a better group of backs around him, but atm I'd have Foley as the Wallabies' starting No 10.

 

[No4918]

Some people have short and possibly selective memories. The coaching staff in 2011 also said Cooper was highly involved in coming up with game plans and one of the best thinkers about the game they had worked with. Of course every 10 will look better with a basic structure to work with. Foley has a pretty obvious plan under Cheika and it shows in his performances. Lack of a discernible, coherent plan was quite a regular criticism of Deans tenure and the biggest issue with Graham.

 

[Gnostic]

IMO and I've said it for two years is between Gagger and No4918s posts.

Cooper is a very creative 10 and he can play a more structure game if required and at their best the Qld backs from 2009-2012 did play a structured game, but they also had people working very hard off the ball in both attack and defence. In attack there were always a few options for a ball carrier and the ball didn't just die at each phase.

Graham has achieved his long term average in terms of results and for me more importantly in the mode of play and skill development he has managed to get out of the squad. To anybody who thinks it is a bit harsh you should recall that posters like Redshappy were aghast when Graham was first appointed due to the history of results that he had. Their analysis has been 100% accurate in terms of results and mode of those results.

However Graham isn't just the whole story, the comments of Graham and Carmichael this year, like all good excuses and lies have a kernal of truth. The Reds had been on the slide since 2012. A large part of the slide was the loss of key players (and coaching staff) and poor recruiting to cover those losses. For instance when Ioane left the Reds did they recruit a player of similar skill set to allow the game plan they wanted to play to be maintained? No, but they tried to maintain the plan and couldn't get the impact that Ioane was able to generate on the line that he ran. After that other personnel losses compounded the issue, with Harris, Shipperly, Hynes, Morahan and Chamber all leaving. With the loss of Samo and Higgers who was able to give real impact from the backrow?

Do not misread what I am saying, Graham is performing to his standard, a standard which the board should have seen was most likely the ceiling for his teams, but it would be wrong in my view to lay all this at his feet and that says other issues with the Reds will not be fixed just by sacking RG. Such as why did the S&C staff quit mid season?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Is Cooper unique that he benefits from players working hard off the ball, creating options both for attack and forcing the defence to mark up against?

Every single 10 in the world benefits from that.

 

[Pfitzy]

Is Cooper unique that he benefits from players working hard off the ball, creating options both for attack and forcing the defence to mark up against?

Every single 10 in the world benefits from that.

Yes, funnily enough, it is a team game.

Foley benefits from having a forward pack going forward in the second half. What some people choose to remember is the touch kick and goal kicks that missed, in the first half.

Unfortunately the experience levels of the Reds backline are not there in comparison to 2011, and the forward pack isn't as cohesive IMHO, which means (as Gagger said in the pub earlier) its cyclical: backs can't get over the line, forwards can't go forward, halves under pressure, nothing works.

 

[TOCC]

I think you grasped the concept - you just don't like it!

I remember the Reds coaches saying as much in 2011 - "we've got a simple set pattern that Quade can then improvise on top of" (paraphrased)

Clearly that worked in 2011, but hasn't since. It was also a problem at Deans' Wallabies where there was no discernable pattern - or one that worked anyway - and Quade was largely at sea, especially against the best opposition, unable to add his skill set in a winning effect.

My observation therefore is that Quade struggles to orchestrate a backline in a way that makes the most out of it and the team. It's not the nature of his game. He can do things with the ball and one-on-one space no-one else can - but these work off a team that is performing, they don't make the team perform.

Take the cut-out passes you cite - by the far the majority of the time when thrown they're not the best option as they just allow defences to drift. They're awesome pieces of skill, look great and every now and again make magic - but catch, draw and pass is almost always a better option for the team.

Then, if you look at a Foley or a Carter type of 10 - an orchestrator - they don't work on top of a set pattern, they are the pattern. If the pattern isn't working they can alter it, or fix it with their play.

Take the number of times you see Foley receive dodgy ball, asses his options, and then head down hit the line, knowing that in those situations if he can make or bust the gainline the rest of the team can get back into pattern without losing tempo. In these situations Cooper will either refuse the ball and let the pace drop, or go on a fishing expedition sideways, looking for a chance to use one of his great skills. Against good oppo, that almost always ends up with the team in a worse position.

The reason I write all this is not to do Cooper down. He's a great player and in a team already performing, can be devastating.

What I really object to are idiotic comments like this -



that usually go together with the assessment that Foley and Phipps "are just not test standard", despite the fact they've now steered the Tahs into the Super rugby finals for the second year running. Why it's no fluke? Because the reason the Tahs are there is the pattern/tempo they play and Phipps and Foley are fundamental to that. They orchestrate the team

The next comment I object to is blaming the Reds pack, and now rest of backline - anyone but QC (Quade Cooper) and Genia - for where they are. Yes, the team isn't playing to the level they were in 2011, but the problem to a large degree is that - skilful players as they are - QC (Quade Cooper) and Genia can't orchestrate them to.

I think in your effort to defend Foley you have come out criticising Quade... 'Paraphrasing' a coach from 2011 isn't exactly quality evidence.

As for the rest of your comment, it's all very subjective and and one which lends very heavily to placing Phipps and Foley on a pedestal whilst trying to blame Quade and Genia for the falling a of the Reds:

If Phipps and Foley are so good at orchestrating the players around them, why did we go so badly on the 2014 end of year tour, like you said, Phipps and Foley are the pattern and if it isn't working they are able to alter the pattern? So why didn't they alter it?

I'd also be interested to see the statistics of how Foley and Cooper measure up against the top teams like the all blacks.


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[KOB1987]

We were 3 rows back and about 10 minutes before the end there was a lineout right in front of us. I haven't seen the replay so I don't know if it was as obvious on TV but as they were setting the one thing that stood out was how stuffed the Reds players were compared to their Tah counterparts. Could be representative of the respective training regimes or it could have been a product of the Tah's physicality, or a combination of both. No doubt the difference in the scoreline of the 2 halves was at least partially attributable to fitness. Quade in particular looked nuffed but at least he had more of an excuse than the other Reds players.

 

[Gnostic]

Is Cooper unique that he benefits from players working hard off the ball, creating options both for attack and forcing the defence to mark up against?

Every single 10 in the world benefits from that.

Thats right but the skills that players like Cooper and Foley bring allow other to excel because of the accuracy and consistency with which they execute their skills, but also because they themselves offer a genuine attacking threat.

My point is that since 2012 Cooper has, when fit, not had any real options for either the Wallabies or the Reds, because of the structures that those teams played and in the case of the Reds the limitations of the teams selected and recruited. It really is hard to judge his form because of that. A bit like judging the form of McCalman in the Force set up which is so limited.

 

[Quick Hands]

I think in your effort to defend Foley you have come out criticising Quade. 'Paraphrasing' a coach from 2011 isn't exactly quality evidence.

As for the rest of your comment, it's all very subjective and and one which lends very heavily to placing Phipps and Foley on a pedestal whilst trying to blame Quade and Genia for the falling a of the Reds:

If Phipps and Foley are so good at orchestrating the players around them, why did we go so badly on the 2014 end of year tour, like you said, Phipps and Foley are the pattern and if it isn't working they are able to alter the pattern? So why didn't they alter it?

I'd also be interested to see the statistics of how Foley and Cooper measure up against the top teams like the all blacks.


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While I believe that Phipps has been the form half for this season and last, IMO Genia outplayed him last night. Despite his man of the match award, Foley wasn't great either. Cooper had his moments last night good and bad and I'd rate Cooper and Foley a draw on last night. I'm fairly certain they'll both be in the RWC squad anyway (barring injury)