Where to for Super Rugby?

[Ignoto]

Super Rugby Trans-Tasman 2021 Paul Cully: Rugby Australia and New Zealand Rugby must go their own way (smh.com.au)

In fact I've just read it twice great article, although slipping in the old Bay of Plenty angle was a bit out there.

Only thing I disagree with is;

But there is another reason why enthusiasm across the ditch is moderate, and it’s hardly a secret to readers familiar with this column: the average Kiwi rugby fan doesn’t rate the Aussie teams.

The kiwis have no excuse not to be attending the games, their attendance has been dropping for years and would have only gotten a bump in 2020 and 21 due to COVID.

Here's 2018;

The Hurricanes ranked 12th with an average crowd of 16,901, while the Highlanders (14,751), Crusaders (14,448), Chiefs (13,527) and Blues (13,128) were 19th, 20th, 23rd and 25th respectively.

Here's 2019;

Last year, NZR said around 450,000 fans attended the New Zealand Super Rugby matches across the regular season. Given there were 39 regular season games played in the country last season, that number averages out to 11,538.

 

[Adam84]

I read Crusader coach also said attendance dropped across the Super Rugby Aotearoa season in 21

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I am somewhat perplexed as whilst I did expect lopsided results for TT, I did not expect such a yawning gap to the extend we are seeing, where even Force after close games, got walloped 7 tries to zip last night.

I do think we need to do something with nz like current TT series but even I am concerned how unappealing if not addressed this option will be and further erode the fan base quickly if the gap not addressed. RA proposes 3 imports per team to improve competitiveness but see a lot more needs to be considered here as last time I checked Force had 7 imports. I wonder if RA and NZRU are alarmed enough to both be considering what else can be done to address this imbalance and working together to resolve it.

 

[Dan54]

Anyway after a bit of deep thought I have come up with way to keep ALL Aus fans engaged in the Super Au comp if they want one. I know the feeling is that Aussies won't watch sports if their teams don't have a good chance of winning, and let's face it perhaps Tahs and Rebels fans won't even watch Super Au because of that (and 2 biggest cities this a problem). So next year I propose a 2 tier system in Oz. The top one has no NZ taems so we will call it Super Au Semi-hard, and the other will be Super Au semi-soft, because no rugby comp can be completely soft.
In Semi-hard comp we will have Reds and Brumbies because they played final and Force because they beat Reds once and generally their supporters don't whinge and enjoy the contest!
The Semi-soft will have Rebel and Tahs, because that's who is left and everyone will probably beat them and ruin it for their supporters!
Semi-hard comp can play each other home and away, the 2nd and 3rd placed team can play off for GF against 1st team at 1ts teams home ground. Winners would get Gold medals, losing Finalists silve and losing minor finalist would get bronze!!
Semi-soft would play each other home and away probably twice each venue, followed by a final at top teams home ground. Medals would be Gold winning and Silver runner up!!
See everyone wins something (just like in Kids sports)so all the semi-hard AND semi-soft c***s would be engaged and leaping up nad down on their seats every week!!
I still have to work on how you whether you would have a full cross conference comp afterwards, and have a lot of work to do to how we could get any TT comp, but NZ fans will just have to watch hard rugby every week and know if you lose you have to get better!!

No Don't thank me fellas, I have said before I sent a lot of years doing my thing trying to make things better in Aus rugby, and I still trying now I home!

 

[Dan54]

And after reading my above post, admit it fellas you really like the idea don't you?

 

[KOB1987]

The way forward is a domestic pro comp of 8-10 teams eventually, with 2 or 3 rep teams from that then playing in a TT at the conclusion of that. NSW and Qld Origin, and an All states side.

the primary problem for us is depth Dan, and your solution doesn’t directly address that. What we would end up with is those top teams attracting all the better players while the Tahs and Rebels would fizzle out. It’s not feasible to phase out the Tahs. We want more teams to build a proper pathway, not less

 

[Rugbynutter39]

And after reading my above post, admit it fellas you really like the idea don't you?

Dan I assume you have been getting your inspiration from the roar for your proposal. This one way better I feel then yours for the full TT (loon) brigade (you know I am just winding you up mate with the loon comment as you are one eyed on the full blown thing but you do at least debate other option...even if always ends back at full TT lol)...
https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/05/29/the-trans-tasman-conundrum-solved/

 

[Rugbynutter39]

The way forward is a domestic pro comp of 8-10 teams eventually, with 2 or 3 rep teams from that then playing in a TT at the conclusion of that. NSW and Qld Origin, and an All states side.

the primary problem for us is depth Dan, and your solution doesn’t directly address that. What we would end up with is those top teams attracting all the better players while the Tahs and Rebels would fizzle out. It’s not feasible to phase out the Tahs. We want more teams to build a proper pathway, not less

I got to admit I was more in the do both camp but actually with the results of current TT and fan support vs momentum got with super rugby Au actually coming round to the idea you propose Kobe as maybe best way forward which is 8 to 10 team domestic comp (but I suggest we start with 6 with say as per Hamish’s suggestion add Japanese team) and then have 2 to 3 rep teams play in champions league with kiwi teams. The rest who don’t make rep teams play in revamped nrc style competition with the best of the best club players.

I have come to Paul Cully’S view (which in my head always had but wanted to not believe) which is RA and NZRU obejectives and outcomes want from TT too far apart to make it work. The above at least closer to satisfying objectives of both. I agree with Paul cully that only a matter of time kiwi’s create their own 8 team comp without us as only need one more team to make 8 which bay of plenty seems probable candidate.

I just don’t see the point of flogging a dead horse and just not convinced at this point even continuing with 6 week one round TT comp per this year sustainable.

 

[KOB1987]

I got to admit I was more in the do both camp but actually with the results of current TT and fan support vs momentum got with super rugby Au actually coming round to the idea you propose Kobe as maybe best way forward which is 8 to 10 team domestic comp (but I suggest we start with 6 with say as per Hamish’s suggestion add Japanese team) and then have 2 to 3 rep teams play in champions league with kiwi teams. The rest who don’t make rep teams play in revamped nrc style competition with the best of the best club players.

I have come to Paul Cully’S view (which in my head always had but wanted to not believe) which is RA and NZRU obejectives and outcomes want from TT too far apart to make it work. The above at least closer to satisfying objectives of both. I agree with Paul cully that only a matter of time kiwi’s create their own 8 team comp without us as only need one more team to make 8 which bay of plenty seems probable candidate.

I just don’t see the point of flogging a dead horse and just not convinced at this point even continuing with 6 week one round TT comp per this year sustainable.

That's probably the only part I don't agree with. No need for another tier, the 'rest' just go back to club land.

Yes, start with 6 teams but I'd rather the Drua or a second NSW team to start with, and then build on that to 8 then 10 teams over 5 years or so.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

That's probably the only part I don't agree with. No need for another tier, the 'rest' just go back to club land.

No way with going back to club land with 12 week, 6 team domestic competition as that would impinge rest of players pro development

 

[KOB1987]

No way with going back to club land with six week domestic competition as that would impinge rest of players pro development

Not really. The top 80-90 eligible players in the country would be involved with the three rep teams, and the remaining ones are going to be in the pro system for the bulk of the season. It would be a boon for the fringe players to then go back and play for their clubs for the last few rounds and then the finals.

EDIT: I just saw you are proposing a 6 week comp. No way, it needs to be the length of the current comp, so 3 rounds as per the status quo and then becoming a 2 round H&A when it expands.

 

[Rebels3]

That's probably the only part I don't agree with. No need for another tier, the 'rest' just go back to club land.

Yes, start with 6 teams but I'd rather the Drua or a second NSW team to start with, and then build on that to 8 then 10 teams over 5 years or so.

Club land just isn’t good enough standard to produce players. It sucks to hear but it’s the truth. Aussie rugby players contrary to belief play for their local clubs more than any other country, kiwis almost never go back to club game.

 

[KOB1987]

Club land just isn’t good enough standard to produce players. It sucks to hear but it’s the truth. Aussie rugby players contrary to belief play for their local clubs more than any other country, kiwis almost never go back to club game.

It's not a good enough standard to produce them, I agree with that. As I outline above it wouldn't be to produce or develop them, they are in the pro system for the bulk of the season, having them return to club land for the last couple of months will only improve the standard and the profile of the top club comps. If there is an 8 team comp say, we are talking about the middle 150 or so players in the country.

 

[Dan54]

Dan I assume you have been getting your inspiration from the roar for your proposal. This one way better I feel then yours for the full TT (loon) brigade (you know I am just winding you up mate with the loon comment as you are one eyed on the full blown thing but you do at least debate other option.even if always ends back at full TT lol).
https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/05/29/the-trans-tasman-conundrum-solved/

Na mate, haven't seen the one in Roar, I just trying to come up with something some of Aus 'suppoters' want. not coaches or players as I haven't heard them wanting easy way out.
Mate , you can't say I not trying to help you out. And my version is maybe killing all TT, we will just have a 7 team comp with MP (Moana Pasifika) and Drua! That's enough for now
Of course the other thing then is with no mutual comp, NZ won't have to give RA fee use of TV rights for the games from there, so that money that Stan will want to pay will go straight into NZR coffers, ok a bit less for RA, but it all working for me!!

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Na mate, haven't seen the one in Roar, I just trying to come up with something some of Aus 'suppoters' want. not coaches or players as I haven't heard them wanting easy way out.
Mate , you can't say I not trying to help you out. And my version is maybe killing all TT, we will just have a 7 team comp with MP (Moana Pasifika) and Drua! That's enough for now
Of course the other thing then is with no mutual comp, NZ won't have to give RA fee use of TV rights for the games from there, so that money that Stan will want to pay will go straight into NZR coffers, ok a bit less for RA, but it all working for me!!

Mate you need to click on the roar link - as it is really funny humerous take..

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Not really. The top 80-90 eligible players in the country would be involved with the three rep teams, and the remaining ones are going to be in the pro system for the bulk of the season. It would be a boon for the fringe players to then go back and play for their clubs for the last few rounds and then the finals.

EDIT: I just saw you are proposing a 6 week comp. No way, it needs to be the length of the current comp, so 3 rounds as per the status quo and then becoming a 2 round H&A when it expands.

Error and fixed as I am agreeing with current comp of 12 weeks which still not enough to develop other players not involved in other pro comp

 

[RebelYell]

We need a competition that convinces the 20-30 top quality Australian players overseas to play here. Commercially, that is what we need to find. It won't guarantee us catching up to the Kiwis, because it may well be replicated with their top players if the competition has a heavy NZ focus.

However, FWIW, I would go like this:

Everything boils down to $. If we had a round-robin 12 team, as appears likely, it should be home or away (swap the next year) and then the top 6 (regardless of country of origin) qualify for the champions league (alongside top placed Japanese team) and the bottom six qualify for the challenge leeague (alongside runner up Japanese team). They play round robin (6 rounds) and have a top 3 finals series for each. The share of broadcast $ would be heavily weighted in favour of champions league, incentivising all clubs to invest heavily in their squad to try and qualify for the elite version.

The elephant in the room is if no AU team qualified for the Champions League - I concede that would be disastrous, but I just don't think you can give up a place as a guarantee and retain a semblance of credibility.

I would also allow selection for the Wallabies if you played for any of the 12 Super Rugby teams - incl. NZ teams, Moana Pasifika, Drua - as an additional carrot to help bring home those 20-30 players I referenced above.

 

[Dan54]

Mate you need to click on the roar link - as it is really funny humerous take..

Na mate, I can't see anyone coming up with better comp than my last proposal, so don't need to look at any others.
You know deep down I right and Aus supporters would lap up everyone wins!! Hell you could even split the Tahs and have a Western Sydnet team, just need to weaken each comp to suit the standard of the teams!

 

[Dan54]

The way forward is a domestic pro comp of 8-10 teams eventually, with 2 or 3 rep teams from that then playing in a TT at the conclusion of that. NSW and Qld Origin, and an All states side.

the primary problem for us is depth Dan, and your solution doesn’t directly address that. What we would end up with is those top teams attracting all the better players while the Tahs and Rebels would fizzle out. It’s not feasible to phase out the Tahs. We want more teams to build a proper pathway, not less

Yep I realise the problem is depth mate and in all seriousness you don't really think it a good idea to have 2-3 teams in a TT comp , or anyone else in here would scream blue murder as it sounds an awful lot like the Aritipu report that got everyone's nickers in a twist!!!!
Actually what you propose sounds an awful lot like a NRC comp with a super comp of 2-3 Oz teams.

 

[Rebels3]

The few things I do no are been talked about in the background is clubs wanting to play more games than they are. Also high performance is aligning to getting more professional games into our non wallaby players. The belief is that tactically they aren’t learning and physically professionalism cannot be replicated at club level to a level that’s of a certain standard. Essentially they want everyone in the squad getting 10-20 pro games a year.

NZ however only have room for around 16 games as NPC window is after.

Any proposal that doesn’t look at these variables isn’t what’s going to happen. No SRAU only and 2 teams making a Champ league structure. Clubs will go bust, revenue will dry up and standards will regress.

Most likely is tours (short term), an NRC type competition (but won’t be as fast an loose as before) and another comp (against Japan or GRR).

The data shows that Aus rugby players play the least amount of pro rugby in the world (out of the big nations). Some countries are arguably playing too much but we are on the too little end.

Perhaps this is why SS is looking to professionalize.

A couple of teams are looking at tours a couple others are exploring other competition ideas. Ideally all will end up on the same page.

Edit: there is also no interest in expanding the teams beyond 5