Where to for Super Rugby?

[Mr Doug]

Yesterday was a very sad day for Australian Rugby.
To paraphrase a former Australian Prime Minister:

Well may we say God save the Western Force, because nothing will save the ARU Board!

 

[dabiged]

Has there been any word on why the arbitration went against the force. From my albeit biased point of view I thought it was an open and shut case that the Force were destined to win. From memory the case hinged on if the broadcast deal was altered or if it was a new one, and to me it looked like it was a alteration to the existing deal and hence the alliance agreement was still in place.

Has anyone heard why the arbiter of the case decided that the broadcast deal was not a continuation of the existing one?

 

[fatprop]

are you deliberately trying to provoke people who just lost their team based on figures that you don't know are true or not? give it a rest mate

ahh no I am not

 

[TOCC]

ahh no I am not

No of course not, no one is that much of an ass

 

[James Pettifer]

I'm sorry that offends you but that's just how I see it, I don't think the number of wins of a team 6 years ago is really a reflection of the on-field performance today. Force IMO have a superior squad and better coaching structure who has encouraged positive, attacking rugby and seems to have developed a good culture over in the west.

Force currently rank above the Reds, Tahs and certainly the Rebels. This decision to cut the Force is based on the short run, and in the short run the Force have a better case to put forward. Which again, is why the decision is so ridiculous.

It doesn't offend me. I just think it is a stupid point to raise

If you don't want to consider 6 years ago, how about the last 2 years.

Force - 8 wins, Rebels - 8 wins and a draw

The Force had a decent year and looked to be able to build from that. But the Rebels had 2 decent years and then fell away into the disaster which was their 2017 season.

 

[TOCC]

It doesn't offend me. I just think it is a stupid point to raise.

Yeah ok, the current playing roster and coaching setup is a stupid point to raise when discussing a teams ongoing viability..

This isn't me saying the Rebels should have being cut, it's me highlighting the hypocrisy in the ARU's statements that it was ever going to be anyone but the Force. It's me disputing that these financial and on-field performance factors were ever part of the decision process. ARU only ever had eyes of the Force, and despite their much improved financial case for 2018 and onwards, they ARU never went back and revisited the issue.

 

[fairplay]

Yesterday was a very sad day for Australian Rugby.

To paraphrase a former Australian Prime Minister:



Well may we say God save the Western Force, because nothing will save the ARU Board!

 

[fatprop]

No of course not, no one is that much of an ass

And someone would be an idiot to think so

 

[A mutterer]

despite the bullish statements coming from the West, i believe the deal is done and dusted. i cannot think of any legal means to save the Force. smoking gun or not. there is no appeal for " lack of natural justice". the WA Rugby union may be able to sue the ARU for breaches of promise etc, but the Force are gone. And it is truly a tragedy.

i think action to recover the $18 million in the stadium upgrade is one legal action they will pursue based on reports.

 

[Braveheart81]

i think action to recover the $18 million in the stadium upgrade is one legal action they will pursue based on reports.

I think they'd have a snowflake's chance in hell of winning that sort of legal action.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[GaffaCHinO]

i think action to recover the $18 million in the stadium upgrade is one legal action they will pursue based on reports.

It's 100million for the stadium and about 20mill for the rugby centre.

The other thing being talked about is when was did the ARU first begin to discuss cutting a team. Was this before or after they acquired the license. Did they acquire it purely to cut them? Stooke I feel will play a massive rile going forward.

 

[swingpass]

The other thing being talked about is when was did the ARU first begin to discuss cutting a team. Was this before or after they acquired the license. Did they acquire it purely to cut them? Stooke I feel will play a massive rile going forward.

the answer is almost certainly yes and yes this may well be germane to whether WARU can sue for damages, but has absolutely no bearing on the legality or otherwise (under the alliance agreement) of the ARU's ability to cut the licence. the arbitration found in favour of the ARU.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

the answer is almost certainly yes and yes this may well be germane to whether WARU can sue for damages, but has absolutely no bearing on the legality or otherwise (under the alliance agreement) of the ARU's ability to cut the licence. the arbitration found in favour of the ARU.

I said it before I'm not a lawyer but obtaining the license under faulse pretence isn't exactly above board and I'm sure that's just the tip of the ice berg

 

[Quick Hands]

I don't know. I doubt the Western Force thought the ARU was going to be looking to remove them from the Super Rugby competition a year later when they made that deal with the ARU.

I don't think many people foretold that SANZAAR's first response after the Super 18 expansion sucked last year was to cut two South African and one Australian team.

But some foresaw S18 being a failure whereas Pulver championed the concept as being the saviour of Australian rugby

 

[swingpass]

I said it before I'm not a lawyer but obtaining the license under faulse pretence isn't exactly above board and I'm sure that's just the tip of the ice berg

agree which is why i said there may be grounds for compensation if the alliance agreement was entered into under false pretences, but the legality of the agreement per se may not be in question. time will tell.

 

[half]

It's 100million for the stadium and about 20mill for the rugby centre.

The other thing being talked about is when was did the ARU first begin to discuss cutting a team. Was this before or after they acquired the license. Did they acquire it purely to cut them? Stooke I feel will play a massive rile going forward.

Wonders aloud if the rugby centre will be given to the AFL or maybe used as a carrot to get the NRL to set up a team.

I can't see it being left in the hands of WS Rugby.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I'm sorry that offends you but that's just how I see it, I don't think the number of wins of a team 6 years ago is really a reflection of the on-field performance today. Force IMO have a superior squad and better coaching structure who has encouraged positive, attacking rugby and seems to have developed a good culture over in the west.



Force currently rank above the Reds, Tahs and certainly the Rebels. This decision to cut the Force is based on the short run, and in the short run the Force have a better case to put forward. Which again, is why the decision is so ridiculous.

I certainly have nothing against the Rebels surviving the cut and I honestly hope they can finally prosper and be successful in the Melbourne market. But I am doubtful and yes if any side was going to be cut my candidate was the Rebels by a country mile.

As financially they have been a complete disaster in handouts compared to the Force...and secondly the Force seem to have better stabilised their financial future via own the Force and TF financial backing. I hope out of this (with my assumption Force is definitely gone for next year) is they (the Rebels) secure a much better squad (as their current squad is woeful and not Super Rugby quality) and make in roads in the Melbourne market and be a successful franchise. But I will state I am extremely doubtful and reckon Rebels will be racking up the debts again under the VRU. The ARU financially bailing out the Rebels or indeed any other Super Rugby franchise has to stop, so this time if Rebels or any other franchise get into debt and can't sort it out...then they go into administration as enough millions have been spent propping up oz super rugby product which less and less rugby fans in this country are interested in.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

It doesn't offend me. I just think it is a stupid point to raise



If you don't want to consider 6 years ago, how about the last 2 years.



Force - 8 wins, Rebels - 8 wins and a draw



The Force had a decent year and looked to be able to build from that. But the Rebels had 2 decent years and then fell away into the disaster which was their 2017 season.

In fairness despite the Rebels being team preferred to see cut, performance was not one of the reasons as yes agree performance needs to be judged over longer period of time than just one season.

 

[James Pettifer]

Yeah ok, the current playing roster and coaching setup is a stupid point to raise when discussing a teams ongoing viability..

This isn't me saying the Rebels should have being cut, it's me highlighting the hypocrisy in the ARU's statements that it was ever going to be anyone but the Force. It's me disputing that these financial and on-field performance factors were ever part of the decision process. ARU only ever had eyes of the Force, and despite their much improved financial case for 2018 and onwards, they ARU never went back and revisited the issue.

I agree that the decision was purely made on who they can cut.

I also agree that the ARU clearly did not look at all alternatives before cutting. Perhaps if they had raised it before they committed to cutting, they would have realised what a stupid idea it was and how it would impact rugby across Australia and particularly (in this case) in WA.

But I think it was way to early to tell whether the Force had a great roster and coaching setup. Remember they won 6 of 15 games ...

 

[Gnostic]

So Super Rugby folds and a new Trans Tasman comp emerges in it's place. How do the Wallabies get better in the future when you have just shut down one of the best new talent pools just now coming into fruition and delivering talent into the Wallabies and bringing some great juniors through the ranks.



Once you shut it down you can't come back in 10 years and turn the tap back on and expect a steady stream of talent to flow. You will have lost all the interest and pathways which have been established. What is the cost of the opportunity being lost now here for rugby in WA.



Whatever structure a professional rugby competition takes in the future we deserved our spot in it based on merit.

I know what you are saying and do agree, but you are focussed totally on the now. The root of this problem and any solution begins with the sustainability of the game, not only on an individual team basis but nationwide. None of the Australian sides are sustainable. The competition as it was this year ad last is of little interest to Rugby fans with the exception of a few truly rusted on units, let alone growing it to new audiences and it is not just because the quality of the Australian sides, all of them, is poor.

The facts are that we have to address the core issues and it starts at the base and not the top of the pyramid. I have no faith that anybody infesting the ARU, NSWRU ACTRU or QRU have any real understanding of the issues surrounding performance and engagement, or if they do they are not interested in making any changes they could imperil their fiefdoms and self interest.

Braveheart in post before this somewhere asks why any of the RUs would vote against their direct interests, and unfortunately that is true and it is why we have come to this impasse. Nobody is interested in doing what is right for the game as a whole, and I include RUPA with the RUs in this. And that unfortunately Moono includes the WARU who have ridden along with process for over a decade.