Where to for Super Rugby?

[Highlander35]

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[Quick Hands]

I am somewhat bemused (not amused in any way) at the angst that has so suddenly erupted over the last few months and is now reaching Vesuvius type levels.

Quite a number of posters have been banging on about reform of management, the lack of real accountability, integrity in process and serious questions about conflicts of interest on the board and we were roundly criticised and castigated. This situation and what will happen over the next few years to the remaining teams has been a slowly emerging train wreck that was predictable but too many people were blinded by loyalties and emotion to see it coming. Today we have so many passionate Force fans feeling betrayed and somewhat lost because of this decision. It is understandable, but really it is not a great loss, the competition itself is already in its death throes and the Force have perhaps been culled a bit earlier than the rest of the Australian sides. It will be hard to say if the lack of crowds at Wallabies games this year will be due to the disdain for the ARU or because of the shite Rugby they have provided since 2015, which was a bright light in a sea of mediocrity.

This is indeed the saddest part of it all Gnostic. Pretty much everything that has transpired was both foreseen and foreseeable. People like you, me, Reds Happy, Inside Shoulder, Half and a few others predicted it long ago. Indeed in many cases our predictions have been almost exactly fulfilled. I remember well being taken to task by some regular posters "what would you guys know" "that could never happen" "don't be so negative" "the ARU know what they're doing" "they ARU have access to information that we don't so everything they say is fine" "We need to trust the ARU" (NSWRU and QRU can be substituted for ARU at any point).

Much of this was misplaced enthusiasm but plenty was what I would describe as overly deferential behaviour towards people considered to be "superior," but who are nothing more than well-connected corporate hacks.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yes but Super Rugby is severely fucked and many of us on here are hoping something like the NRC could morph into a national domestic competition many of us crave (if NZ continues to not want to play ball in Trans Tasman comp) and hence important at least Perth Spirit still part of NRC.

Just spoken with my mates about going to Shute shield final. Use to go to tahs, wallabies and nrc games with them but we have now decided time to get back to grassroots which is now pirates in Shute shield and nrc. Will go to the pub with them to watch wallabies and tahs games but not pay to go to live wallaby or tahs games as don't see worth the money plus disillusionment with professional game driven us back to grass roots. Demise of professional game at least providing opportunities for grass roots as other rusted on supporters I speak to generally feel the same.


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[I like to watch]

Imagine this.

It's 2014 and SARU are discussing their long term future, one where they see the riches of Europe eclipsing the competitive benefit of playing in Super Rugby.. They ask themselves, how do we approach this, how do we join Europe Rugby.

One person at SARU proposes they push for an expansion of the Super Rugby tournament, get SANZAAR to fund the expansion. If the expansion works then great, but if it doesn't then SARU could volunteer to take a hit and cut one of their teams, but instead of cutting that team they offer it to the Pro12, they use it to test the water and see if the broadcasters and fans like the concept.

In 2019 when the current SANZAAR broadcast deal is up, if the Pro12 concept hasn't worked then no harm done, they still look like a good guy to their SANZAAR partners because they volunteered to cut one of their teams. But if it has worked, if the ratings and crowds support the concept, then they now have a tangible and quantifiable grounds to negotiate with European Unions and broadcasters on to join those leagues. Alternatively, the threat to leave SANZAAR and the persuasion this holds allows them even more control of the SANZAAR model. Australia meanwhile, now offers less content to the model, thus gets offered a lesser proportion of the overall broadcast deal.

I don't know about that scenario, but it does seem that our partners are playing three dimensional chess and we think the game is checkers.....

It seems to me that the whole table is betting strongly,and have presumably have good cards,ARU were dealt a two and seven, and complain about the crap cards they were dealt after they threw their money away by betting all in.

 

[fatprop]

The back story that has been spread by the same party
claiming finances were the issue? After claiming we weren't successful enough with 5 teams and putting out a shiny line graph proving so? The same party that has had a massive hole blown in the finance story by an ex-ARU board member?

That doesn't make it untrue

 

[TOCC]

Did Twiggy offer to help in 2015?

Fortescue have sponsored the Western Force for years, he had unequivocally boosted his support in 2017 though, this from 2014:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...p/news-story/40bbb53e3f25b56a008c3934b6467379

 

[TOCC]

That doesn't make it untrue

are you deliberately trying to provoke people who just lost their team based on figures that you don't know are true or not? give it a rest mate

 

[Braveheart81]

It's irrelevant, the fact is he offered it now. I've seen a lot of people bemoan the fact Australian rugby doesn't have a Frank Lowy type willing to get involved. Now we have someone equally wealthy willing to put considerable money into the sport without gaining any control whatsoever and the ARU has basically said nah. Sure, it would have been great if he'd put his hand up earlier, but the fact is he put it up before a decision had been made.

Realistically though, the offer didn't come soon enough. SANZAAR had already agreed that they were going to reduce the competition to 15 teams and that the ARU were going to cut a team.

The major involvement by Twiggy Forrest didn't seem to commence until the 11th hour when arbitration was already committed to by both parties.

It does seem like we would be in an entirely different position right now if the Force hadn't had to go to the ARU cap in hand and essentially cede control of their organisation and ultimately their future to the ARU. Seemingly several miss less dollars than has been committed to the Force by the fans and Forrest would have saved the team back then.

In hindsight it might have been a wonderful thing for Australian rugby if the severity of the situation had been laid out to everyone sooner and the Own the Force response was allowed to occur in a time frame that could have made a difference.

Australian (and WA in particular) rugby fans have really been galvanised over this issue and many people have shown a willingness to reach into their pockets to help the cause. It is sad that tremendous show of goodwill by fans has achieved nothing and has only resulted in building up the anger and vitriol towards the ARU rather than it being utilised at a point that would have made a difference.

 

[A mutterer]

i disagree vehemently with the force being given the punt into touch. it is a fundamentally stupid decision with no upside.

until such time as the ARU can provide the evidence that the force was the least financially viable team the spin will remain just that. i highly doubt this exists, as the decision reeks of the mediocrity of expedience.

i think that RUPA has no place on the corporate board. their hand in putting everyone in this position makes them even more culpable.

 

[Omar Comin']

In hindsight it might have been a wonderful thing for Australian rugby if the severity of the situation had been laid out to everyone sooner and the Own the Force response was allowed to occur in a time frame that could have made a difference.

Australian (and WA in particular) rugby fans have really been galvanised over this issue and many people have shown a willingness to reach into their pockets to help the cause. It is sad that tremendous show of goodwill by fans has achieved nothing and has only resulted in building up the anger and vitriol towards the ARU rather than it being utilised at a point that would have made a difference.

This is the point that really cuts to the heart of the issue IMO. And I don't think it could only be seen in hindsight. Many of us were making this point early on in the thread (back in the last ice age or whenever this thread began) both before the decision to cut a team was made and immediately after. It's just really obvious now that the ARU didn't do everything they possibly could to make keeping 5 teams financially viable. And that's a betrayal, especially to the fans in WA.

To add to this, since the decision was made new information has come to hand that changes the assumptions. It is clear now that the Force wouldn't be a financial drain in the medium to longer term (and the ARU have obviously decided it's not worth cutting the Rebels). The ARU could and should have changed their decision.

 

[TOCC]

Realistically though, the offer didn't come soon enough. SANZAAR had already agreed that they were going to reduce the competition to 15 teams and that the ARU were going to cut a team.

The major involvement by Twiggy Forrest didn't seem to commence until the 11th hour when arbitration was already committed to by both parties.

It does seem like we would be in an entirely different position right now if the Force hadn't had to go to the ARU cap in hand and essentially cede control of their organisation and ultimately their future to the ARU. Seemingly several miss less dollars than has been committed to the Force by the fans and Forrest would have saved the team back then.

In hindsight it might have been a wonderful thing for Australian rugby if the severity of the situation had been laid out to everyone sooner and the Own the Force response was allowed to occur in a time frame that could have made a difference.

Australian (and WA in particular) rugby fans have really been galvanised over this issue and many people have shown a willingness to reach into their pockets to help the cause. It is sad that tremendous show of goodwill by fans has achieved nothing and has only resulted in building up the anger and vitriol towards the ARU rather than it being utilised at a point that would have made a difference.

Yet the arbitration was over the legality of whether the ARU had the power to kick out the Force, not over the viability of the Force. Arbitration of the legality of kicking them out and the analysis of which the teams viability going forward should have been two seperate issues.

What has pissed everyone off is that they weren't considered separately, and Stooke having stepped down from the ARU Board has conceded as much. Force weren't selected to be kicked out of the competition based on their financial performance or on-field performance, they were selected because they were the easiest option.

ARU shouldn't be insulting fans by claiming it was through a process of thorough analysis to decide which team was to be cut, when thats utter horse shit, the only analysis was done over which team they could legally cut. As it stands, Australian Rugby is no stronger today then it was yesterday, no offence to Rebels fans, but as far as i can see the Force presented greater financial stability going forward and have demonstrated better on-field performances. Which makes me seriously question the credibility and intentions of this whole process.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Unfortunately I feel with the ARU is focussed on addressing the symptoms and not the root cause of the basic failure of the professional game in this country.

Lets get real as if any high calibre candidate would want to touch Australian Rugby and be head of the ARU at this point as total basket case.....financially broke and just completely rooted......

 

[Braveheart81]

This is the point that really cuts to the heart of the issue IMO. And I don't think it could only be seen in hindsight.

I don't know. I doubt the Western Force thought the ARU was going to be looking to remove them from the Super Rugby competition a year later when they made that deal with the ARU.

I don't think many people foretold that SANZAAR's first response after the Super 18 expansion sucked last year was to cut two South African and one Australian team.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yes unfortunate TF increased support did not come sooner but I think it is very unfair to criticise him for that as yes FMG been a sponsor for a number of years of Western Force. And to be frank he owed the Force nothing and I think any Super Rugby side would be grateful of support from a person of standing and wealth of TF at any time, and not sit there questioning why they did not support them sooner!

Hopefully TF supports WA rugby through this period of change so all is not lost. Super Rugby is a dying product so at least with TF on board hopefully WA Rugby can have a Plan B or C that sees what they have achieved totally destroyed. Yes this will cause damage to WA rugby without question but any plan b or c which can limit the damage and help them move forward can only be a good thing, so I hope TF at least continues to support WA rugby through the difficult times ahead.

 

[Omar Comin']

I don't know. I doubt the Western Force thought the ARU was going to be looking to remove them from the Super Rugby competition a year later when they made that deal with the ARU.

I don't think many people foretold that SANZAAR's first response after the Super 18 expansion sucked last year was to cut two South African and one Australian team.

That's not what I meant. I think the part that cuts to the heart of the issue is the fact the ARU never publicly laid out the severity of the situation (and what they were leaning towards doing) and didn't give the unions and/or the rugby community a proper chance to fix it before making their stupid decision. Now cutting the Force (and effectively destroying the code in an entire state) while Andrew Forrest is there willing to guarantee their long term future is just extra stupid.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

I can't wait for Stooke to tee off on the ARU I feel what he has said is just the beginning.

 

[swingpass]

Yet the arbitration was over the legality of whether the ARU had the power to kick out the Force, not over the viability of the Force. Arbitration of the legality of kicking them out and the analysis of which the teams viability going forward should have been two seperate issues........

. Force weren't selected to be kicked out of the competition based on their financial performance or on-field performance, they were selected because they were the easiest option.

ARU shouldn't be insulting fans by claiming ......................, the only analysis was done over which team they could legally cut. As

this exactly and i have been saying so since day one. the Force were the only entity over which the ARU had any control, period. thats why there were never any objective criteria given, publicly, as to what the decision would be based on.

despite the bullish statements coming from the West, i believe the deal is done and dusted. i cannot think of any legal means to save the Force. smoking gun or not. there is no appeal for " lack of natural justice". the WA Rugby union may be able to sue the ARU for breaches of promise etc, but the Force are gone. And it is truly a tragedy.

 

[James Pettifer]

but as far as i can see the Force presented greater financial stability going forward and have demonstrated better on-field performances. Which makes me seriously question the credibility and intentions of this whole process.

Can we stop with the Force demonstrating "better on-field performances" than the Rebels?

The Rebels had a crap year, the Force had a mediocre year. Over their history, both teams have been pretty similar

Wins by year
2011 - Force 5, Rebels 3
2012 - Force 3, Rebels 4
2013 - Force 4, Rebels 5
2014 - Force 9, Rebels 4
2015 - Force 3, Rebels 7
2016 - Force 2, Rebels 7
2017 - Force 6, Rebels 1.5

Total - 32 for the Force, 33.5 for the Rebels

Maybe 2018 would be a great year for the Force building on the decent performance in 2017 but it could also be like 2015 for the Force or 2017 for the Rebels.

 

[James Pettifer]

this exactly and i have been saying so since day one. the Force were the only entity over which the ARU had any control, period. thats why there were never any objective criteria given, publicly, as to what the decision would be based on.

despite the bullish statements coming from the West, i believe the deal is done and dusted. i cannot think of any legal means to save the Force. smoking gun or not. there is no appeal for " lack of natural justice". the WA Rugby union may be able to sue the ARU for breaches of promise etc, but the Force are gone. And it is truly a tragedy.

100% agree. I can't see the Force being in Super rugby in 2018. They will start to lose their players.

It is probably time to start looking at how to get the Force back in future. Either in Super Rugby in 2019, 2020 or 2021 or in whatever happens after Super Rugby implodes.

But this was clearly a screwup. The decision had been made without considering what other options could have been done. If the ARU had talked to Twiggy _before_ the meeting then perhaps they wouldn't have done something so dumb.

 

[TOCC]

Can we stop with the Force demonstrating "better on-field performances" than the Rebels?

I'm sorry that offends you but that's just how I see it, I don't think the number of wins of a team 6 years ago is really a reflection of the on-field performance today. Force IMO have a superior squad and better coaching structure who has encouraged positive, attacking rugby and seems to have developed a good culture over in the west.

Force currently rank above the Reds, Tahs and certainly the Rebels. This decision to cut the Force is based on the short run, and in the short run the Force have a better case to put forward. Which again, is why the decision is so ridiculous.