Wallabies Tri Nations

[DPK]

The problem with the 'go with experience' selection mode is (at least) twofold.

One, that is not what RD has been consistently doing as a core selection mode. If it was, surely Baxter would have been included, and potentially other experienced front-rowers available but not considered in a hugely important part of the team make up.

Two, what if, as in Giteau's case, the recent component of that 'experience' has correlated with declining performance excellence in pressure games against the best sides (in both kicking and back line play). [+ just a btw, it's unarguable is it not that Baxter delivered a much better 2010 S14 than Giteau.]

These are two very different situations (Baxter vs Giteau), and IMO they aren't really comparable. The backline is not the pack, and vice versa.

Combined with the rest of the inexperience, this makes sense. However if I was a coach I wouldn't be hesitant to drop my worst performing member of my backline, particularly when it was proven to me (vs England) that his possible replacement fit into the side better.

I agree Giteau is in some shocking form, but you need the old heads in there and I think Deans is only selecting Giteau because of this.

A question, if Mortlock wasn't injured, would he still be being selected for the same reasons Deans is selecting Giteau?

 

[fatprop]

So fp you consider A Finger's quite successful (attack and defence) work v the SA teams in this year's S14 was just a bit of good fortune...?

big difference between S14 & tests, and it is more important to judge a player by the efforts at the back end of the S14 (when it gets hard) than the first few games.

To play a crash ball 12 against Nonu and Devillers you need to be more than 92kgs

 

[Scotty]

big difference between S14 & tests, and it is more important to judge a player by the efforts at the back end of the S14 (when it gets hard) than the first few games.

To play a crash ball 12 against Nonu and Devillers you need to be more than 92kgs

What do you think the playing weight of Nathan Grey was?

If Fa'ainga isn't big enough, then in time I would hope to see Chambers as one of the centres.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

big difference between S14 & tests, and it is more important to judge a player by the efforts at the back end of the S14 (when it gets hard) than the first few games.

To play a crash ball 12 against Nonu and Devillers you need to be more than 92kgs

Why?

I hate how weight alone (power, bodyheight etc forgotten) keeps coming up as the be all and end all of Wallaby backs. If you want a big 100+kg type 12 you see in club rugby, play Carter.. if you want a powerful, hardrunning 12 play Ant or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). Ioane is 0.5kg heavier than Ant, tell him to have a big mac on the way to the game if your concerned about .5 of a kilo.

 

[Reddy!]

Brumbies Guy, I was just about to quote and comment on the exact same thing. Carter is 103kg, but one of the most useless players on the rugby field. Weight doesn't mean anything if you can't use it. You have to bring height into the equation as well - Fainga'a isn't the tallest back running around - so that is 92kg of quite substantial mass for somebody his height. I also thing Fainga'a is a bit more clever than your standard crash ball player. He is capable of setting up his outside man unlike Carter, and is a hell of a lot faster.

 

[fatprop]

Why?

I hate how weight alone (power, bodyheight etc forgotten) keeps coming up as the be all and end all of Wallaby backs. If you want a big 100+kg type 12 you see in club rugby, play Carter.. if you want a powerful, hardrunning 12 play Ant or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). Ioane is 0.5kg heavier than Ant, tell him to have a big mac on the way to the game if your concerned about .5 of a kilo.

Carter? love to - if he was 10m quicker, Gits if he didn't crab, Barnes if he didn't take the safe option all the time, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) when he learns to pass and Faainga is he was closer to 100kg etc etc

I just think that Faainga will need to add more muscle/size to be effective at test level

 

[daz]

To play a crash ball 12 against Nonu and Devillers you need to be more than 92kgs

I understand tests are a different animal to S14, but it is not like Ant has never played against these guys before.

 

[Scotty]

I'd be surprised if he was actually 92kgs anyway. He is pretty short (relatively) and doesn't look all that big in person.

 

[en_force_er]

Being a big ball runner in a mentality. It's no coincidence that most of the bigger blokes have this mentality but it isn't the be all and end all.

Yes, a freak like Lomu will always be a freak but in terms of size, but 100kg (Carter) and 90kg (Fainga'a) won't see too much of an advantage or disadvantage. You've got to remember there is more to physical conditioning that your weight, I don't know the math but surely a 90kg person who is faster than a 100kg person would hit contact with an almost identical amount of force.

I guess what I'm saying is we need to think big, not necessarily be big.

 

[RedsHappy]

I understand tests are a different animal to S14, but it is not like Ant has never played against these guys before.

Tick. And most observers thought he played exceptionally well against all the big buggers from the 2010 SA teams, both in attack and, even more so, in defence. I am not by a long shot a rugby-playing expert, but I do feel that occasionally the 'Tests are always a mile different from S14 in all respects' line can be overdone if say an S14 player X has mastered or dealt well with S14 opposition players Y and Z in the best S14 opposition teams that contain a large number of active Test players (as per the Bull and Stormers, for example).

 

[Reddy!]

I just think that Faainga will need to add more muscle/size to be effective at test level

And become a Lote mark 2? Or a Rathbone mark 2? You may as well play Fainga'a in the backrow if he starts to tip 100kg. If anyone needs to add weight, it's your beloved props, like Daley.

Props don't bend the line much when they carry the ball despite being big, because they are as slow as a snail. Like my old mate en force er said, hitting the line at speed is the key - not much use have a 100kg centre who trys to run the ball from a standing start.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

Carter? love to - if he was 10m quicker, Gits if he didn't crab, Barnes if he didn't take the safe option all the time, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) when he learns to pass and Faainga is he was closer to 100kg etc etc

I just think that Faainga will need to add more muscle/size to be effective at test level

Well I just hope the bionic man you're working on is ready to go for the RWC, and turns out better than our last six million dollar man in Giteau

 

[RedsHappy]

These are two very different situations (Baxter vs Giteau), and IMO they aren't really comparable. The backline is not the pack, and vice versa. I agree Giteau is in some shocking form, but you need the old heads in there and I think Deans is only selecting Giteau because of this. A question, if Mortlock wasn't injured, would he still be being selected for the same reasons Deans is selecting Giteau?

DPK, I always watch for your posts mate, but I just cannot accept that somehow, as you seem to infer here, 'experience' matters more in the back line than in the forwards. I would have thought if anything, the opposite is true, relatively. Experience in depth in, for example, scrummaging against top Test teams, breakdown work, etc can be absolutely invaluable vs the 'L plate' model we have adopted in today's Wallabies' front row.

And why would 'old heads' be good heads to have in crucial games if the old head is in 'shocking form' and causing real difficulties in the 10-12 combo being the engine room of the back line?

Re Mortlock, that's very speculative as you know, but, like Gits, he's an icon in some obvious decline and if we are serious in the whole 'develop and depth and youth' model, than he would not be picked if fit.

 

[fatprop]

And become a Lote mark 2? Or a Rathbone mark 2? You may as well play Fainga'a in the backrow if he starts to tip 100kg. If anyone needs to add weight, it's your beloved props, like Daley.

Props don't bend the line much when they carry the ball despite being big, because they are as slow as a snail. Like my old mate en force er said, hitting the line at speed is the key - not much use have a 100kg centre who trys to run the ball from a standing start.

happy to disagree, as for our props, don't get me started, kids being bashed by men.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

And become a Lote mark 2? Or a Rathbone mark 2? You may as well play Fainga'a in the backrow if he starts to tip 100kg. If anyone needs to add weight, it's your beloved props, like Daley.

Props don't bend the line much when they carry the ball despite being big, because they are as slow as a snail. Like my old mate en force er said, hitting the line at speed is the key - not much use have a 100kg centre who trys to run the ball from a standing start.

Agreed 100%. At most I'd see Anthony's max playing weight at 95kg (which is massive, even if people decide to compare with freaks like Nonu and Lomu) for him to keep being effective.

I think there’s becoming an over indulgence here in forumland in the numbers/stats that’s starting to get in the way, rather than going out and actually watching rugby and seeing what works

 

[fatprop]

Well I just hope the bionic man you're working on is ready to go for the RWC, and turns out better than our last six million dollar man in Giteau

:nta: every player has areas that needs improvement, and I hope they all improve their weaknesses .............................................

 

[DPK]

DPK, I always watch for your posts mate, but I just cannot accept that somehow, as you seem to infer here, 'experience' matters more in the back line than in the forwards. I would have thought if anything, the opposite is true, relatively. Experience in depth in, for example, scrummaging against top Test teams, breakdown work, etc can be absolutely invaluable vs the 'L plate' model we have adopted in today's Wallabies' front row.

And why would 'old heads' be good heads to have in crucial games if the old head is in 'shocking form' and causing real difficulties in the 10-12 combo being the engine room of the back line?

Re Mortlock, that's very speculative as you know, but, like Gits, he's an icon in some obvious decline and if we are serious in the whole 'develop and depth and youth' model, than he would not be picked if fit.

I wasn't quite clear, RH, but I didn't mean that experience is more important or less important in the forwards rather than the backs, rather picking an experienced forward in the pack doesn't have the same requirements or results as picking an veteran in the backline.

I'm not a Giteau fan, even when he is in form, but if things go to the shit I'd hate to see the gagglefuck of youngsters picked by Deans rock up in South Africa or New Zealand without someone who has been there before at the Test level.

 

[TheRiddler]

And become a Lote mark 2? Or a Rathbone mark 2? You may as well play Fainga'a in the backrow if he starts to tip 100kg. If anyone needs to add weight, it's your beloved props, like Daley.

Could also mention a certain ex-Waratah, Manly winger with Fijian honours heading off to France in that same vein. I wont though because I understand he's a bit touchy at the moment.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

No he would be the opposite I'd have thought. He is naturally a large size trimming down, while the others were trying to bulk to get bigger?

 

[en_force_er]

Haha love it. Are you a science major Groucho?

Fainga'a travelling that much faster than Carter is somewhat realistic, not to bash Carter becuase I do think the man is a perfectly serviceable player.

THIS BEING SAID there is alot to say about the "intention" of one's ball running. Now, Fainga'a isn't that much heavier than say JO'C but JO'C does not run to gain metres in contact, he looks for the palm, step or offload ect. It all about the intention of the running style so we have to ask, what kind of inside center do we want?

Additionally, if Brown is dropped for Higgers (or for one of my favorite players, McCalman) A.Fainga'a is said to play inside much like a fetcher-style flanker would. He would negate losing this advantage, which is surely one of our strengths. This however is a very small side note.