Elsom: In or Out?

[Brumbieman]

No.
He has proven he is captaincy material at the Force.

He would be my selection as captain if I had to choose.

And regarding Rocky. We know he is class. Higgens has done OK, McCalman too. But Rocky has been one of the best performers for a number of years. lets play him at least in the 3N. If he gets his form then we are very happy. If not then we can try one of the others. But to write off one of the best blindsides out there because he has been injured and hasnt blown the world away in the couple of games he has played in a team that is barely functioning is ludicrous.

And the point about the captaincy is a very good one. He is the incumbent captain. Dropping him from the team will cause instability.

Bullshit to everything.


Sharpe is admirable for the way he tries his guts out for 70mins of each game, and is no doubt respected amongst his peers, but a winning captain he aint.


Rocky is not a captain either. He is captain because he was a senior player with lots of experience, NOT because he is a genuine leader. People like Mortlock, Eales, Gregan, Genia, Pocock, the Fainga'a's, etc are true leaders, and we should be selecting a captain based on their leadership qualities/abilities, NOT because they are the most senior/experienced players.

Rocky has also never been particularly stunning down here. He was a good mongrel 6 for the Tahs, and did a good job of being a rangy loose blindside who ran hard and straight. People seem to think that his form for Leinster, where he was famous for being a fantastic seagull, is equal to how he was playing before he went over there, and its simply not the case.

He's not our best captain, and he's currently not our best 6.

 

[qwerty51]

I really fail to see why people rate Sharpe as a captain. What has he ever achieved as a captain and what qualities are they seeing he brings to the table at the Force? I would never ever question his commitment and performance on the field however but a good captain he is not.

 

[Slim 293]

Bullshit to everything.


Sharpe is admirable for the way he tries his guts out for 70mins of each game, and is no doubt respected amongst his peers, but a winning captain he aint.


Rocky is not a captain either. He is captain because he was a senior player with lots of experience, NOT because he is a genuine leader. People like Mortlock, Eales, Gregan, Genia, Pocock, the Fainga'a's, etc are true leaders, and we should be selecting a captain based on their leadership qualities/abilities, NOT because they are the most senior/experienced players.

Rocky has also never been particularly stunning down here. He was a good mongrel 6 for the Tahs, and did a good job of being a rangy loose blindside who ran hard and straight. People seem to think that his form for Leinster, where he was famous for being a fantastic seagull, is equal to how he was playing before he went over there, and its simply not the case.

He's not our best captain, and he's currently not our best 6.

Meh...

Rocky was one of our standout forwards before he headed north... a lot of people forget that he was pure class...

It took him some time to get back to his best, but he was certainly one of our standout forwards in the latter part of the tri nations, and on the EOYT when Australia played their best games...

He's the best 6 we've got, and if fit he will slot straight in...

As for his captaincy, well - that's something else, but to his credit he got better at the job as he went on...

 

[Joe Blow]

Bullshit to everything.


Sharpe is admirable for the way he tries his guts out for 70mins of each game, and is no doubt respected amongst his peers, but a winning captain he aint.


Rocky is not a captain either. He is captain because he was a senior player with lots of experience, NOT because he is a genuine leader. People like Mortlock, Eales, Gregan, Genia, Pocock, the Fainga'a's, etc are true leaders, and we should be selecting a captain based on their leadership qualities/abilities, NOT because they are the most senior/experienced players.

Rocky has also never been particularly stunning down here. He was a good mongrel 6 for the Tahs, and did a good job of being a rangy loose blindside who ran hard and straight. People seem to think that his form for Leinster, where he was famous for being a fantastic seagull, is equal to how he was playing before he went over there, and its simply not the case.

He's not our best captain, and he's currently not our best 6.

Bullshit to that.
Agree with the rest pretty much although Elsom may still be our best option at 6 if he can get some game time under his belt.
He is certainly someone you would want in your corner when the going gets tough.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

Bullshit to that.

Interested in what reasoning you have behind that, JB?

 

[Brumbieman]

Interested in what reasoning you have behind that, JB?

Agreed. Saia and Ant were captain/vice captain of the only junior aus team to win their world cup in the last....decade? Colby is now the Captain of this year's U20 team.

Watch the Hurricanes/Reds game again. The Reds were rudderless, and like a colander, until Ant, and then Saia came on. I think they are the most under-rated players in Australia at the moment, and certainly on par with Genia/Cooper in terms of importance to the Reds.

 

[Reddy!]

Agreed. Saia and Ant were captain/vice captain of the only junior aus team to win their world cup in the last....decade? Colby is now the Captain of this year's U20 team.

Watch the Hurricanes/Reds game again. The Reds were rudderless, and like a colander, until Ant, and then Saia came on. I think they are the most under-rated players in Australia at the moment, and certainly on par with Genia/Cooper in terms of importance to the Reds.

Agreed - Genia and Cooper are the Reds x-factor, but you will never win anything unless the rest of the team is made up of players who provide 100% commitment to games, training and the club culture week in week out.

 

[TheNextBigThing]

There's a massive inconsistency in the argument that Sharpie's record should preclude him from replace Elsom. What was Elsom's top-level captaincy experience before being named Wallabies captain. A big fat doughnut.

A captain should not be judged on the win/loss ration of his team but on his inspirational and decision making value. Sharpie and Elsom come up strong on both counts.

 

[Gnostic]

There's a massive inconsistency in the argument that Sharpie's record should preclude him from replace Elsom. What was Elsom's top-level captaincy experience before being named Wallabies captain. A big fat doughnut.

A captain should not be judged on the win/loss ration of his team but on his inspirational and decision making value. Sharpie xxxxxxxx come up strong on both counts.

Fixed for you. You had everything else right and then ha to ruin it with bullshit.

 

[qwerty51]

There's a massive inconsistency in the argument that Sharpie's record should preclude him from replace Elsom. What was Elsom's top-level captaincy experience before being named Wallabies captain. A big fat doughnut.

A captain should not be judged on the win/loss ration of his team but on his inspirational and decision making value. Sharpie and Elsom come up strong on both counts.

We are judging Sharpe on his decision making. Anyone who says he's a bad captain isn't because of the Force's results but how they've come to those results which imo is a lot to do with Sharpe's poor tactics and decision making.

 

[TheNextBigThing]

Yeah fair enough but a lot of posts are not distinguishing between the force's results and Sharpies performance as captain. Detractors have the burden of proving how his captaincy has influenced those results. I'm not having a go at people's opinions just the causality.

 

[Scotty]

Mark Ella has had his 2 cents:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...n-lead-wallabies/story-e6frg7o6-1226064403675

Got to wonder about this bit. Not sure Mark is across the ages of the candidates, and the fact that all would be considered Gen Y.

What the Wallabies don't need right now is a Generation Y captain because those guys need to concentrate on their own game.

It will be interesting to see how the Brumbies go without Elsom against the Stormers but I have a terrible sense of deja vu.

Horwill is only 2 years younger than Elsom and all of the options Ella mentions are Gen Y. The only one that isn't is Nathan Sharpe.

Not sure how being Gen Y has anything to do with it though?

 

[TheNextBigThing]

Elsom's wallaby debut was in 2005, Horwill's in 2007 that two years is a long time in test match experience, so I sort of see where he's coming from.

Using the term Gen Y though is just confusing.

 

[tigerland12]

Has anyone elses thought that possibly Elsom isn't the best no.6 in the country anymore, and it's not a matter of fitness? Scott Higginbotham has been in amazing form the last 2 months and has been good for the past 2 seasons. Elsom seemed to be slowing a bit and not playing as well last year (minus a couple of games). Even if Rocky was fit, I'd still prefer to see Higginbotham have first crack at 6

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I've gradually come round to Higgers as a test 6 or 8 and it's been based on consistently higher levels of performance as this season has gone on. If Elsom were to be unavailable for the tests we could do a lot worse. I still think Rocky is our best blindside, but I think we have the makings of a very able replacement. I'm still worried about 8 though, it's by far our most troublesome position in the pack. The rest of the forwards basically pick themselves, but there is still some doubt over eight for me.

 

[TheNextBigThing]

If Higginbotham is good enough to play blindside, why not number eight? He does so with some regularity for Queensland.

And as a Force fan you're concerned Mcalman wouldn't be up to it? He had a great test Season in 2010 and this year he's been consistently good.

 

[ChargerWA]

McCalman is a slogger, he just doesn't have the impact that guys like Palu do. If Palu is fit (and I mean proper pack shredding balls out 2009 fit), he is first picked Wallaby. He is more important to our WC chances than Elsom IMO.

I think where Ella gets off track in the above article is this paragraph.

Elsom is a player others draw confidence from and that's one of the reasons he is such a great leader. I may be premature but, based on only one game, I have no hesitation in saying Elsom should be the first player picked for the Wallabies and his captaincy should not be in doubt.

The Brumbies and the Wallabies are two different kettles of fish. The Wallabies won't be wandering about like lost children looking for a saviour without him. I would be equally as happy with either Sharpe, Genia or Horwill leading the Wobs out.

 

[drewprint]

Don't need Palu. Give us Samo instead.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

If Higginbotham is good enough to play blindside, why not number eight? He does so with some regularity for Queensland.

And as a Force fan you're concerned Mcalman wouldn't be up to it? He had a great test Season in 2010 and this year he's been consistently good.

I did say Higgers could play 6 or 8, but I was commenting in the context of him playing 6 (assuming Elsom is out) and who then would play 8? I'm a McCalman fan, but I do have some lingering doubts about his impact at test level. He's good plenty of go in him, but compared to a Parisse, Read etc, he's not really in the same class is he?

 

[tigerland12]

. He's good plenty of go in him, but compared to a Parisse, Read etc, he's not really in the same class is he?

That's what I've been thinking for a while now. Palu is dynamic (when fit) and can match up to the worlds best 8's, but McCalman doesn't seem to offer that much. Don't get me wrong he is a good solid player who deserves 100% to be in the WC squad, but doesn't have that explosiveness that you want from a number 8