Shute Shield 2013

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ Maybe the mandarins at SRU are p***d off that he went across the border to play for the Ponies, and this is their way to get back at him.

I wouldn't put such pettiness past the Heavy Hitters from Rugby's Underground.

You are right the coach. Something needs to be done about the points system, but what?

Most proposals put forward on this thread have loopholes that would be exploited by the clubs.

Not that I can quote an example, but should Uni be penalised for a loyal player such as Phil Waugh who may not have been a Petersham or Canturbury Junior, but has been with them for ever. Forcing players to change clubs because they have too many points would undermine some of the traditional values of Clubland.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Umm - if they are not a club based on Uni of Syd undergrads then maybe they should change their name (and more importantly the team song). Something like Sydney Rugby Club perhaps.
Re juniors - my guess is they could be more than adequately looked after by West Harbour and Southern Districts.
(PS I am a Syd Uni grad).

I think that there is a degree of irony in listening to school kids from Homebush Boys High, and other schools, in the Sydney Uni Colts 3's singing about the joys of life as an undergraduate student.

But then what is the link between the Wicks and an Irish musician called MacNamara?

 

[I like to watch]

You wouldn't force players to move.you would just not allow ANY players with points to join,until players had moved on.

 

[Late Starter]

of course their current players want to be there. That is self evident.
I believe a more even SS is better for the game.look at the score in the colts semi 100 point wins develop no one.
Playing Super contracted players in reserves because you can't fit them in your 1's also adds nothing positive to the game.
Restrict Uni from recruiting as many schoolboys stars as they normally do,let them develop a cohort of kids who played school 2nd's,and we can then see if their program actually improves players,or whether they are just picking winners that would have been developed in any environment.

I agree that a 103-5 scoreline in a finals match is not good for the competition.
Only one super contracted player played second grade for Uni on Saturday.

I think that Uni has developed a great number of players who've had no previous Schoolboy rugby representative experience. However I think there is a little too much weight given to the fact that a player has played representative schoolboy rugby. It's not just in this forum but I have found that often those in Waratahland have overlooked developing young players because they have not had a history of schoolboy rep rugby. The system of selecting players to represent their school association, state or country can't possibly identify every single talented player. Unlike the Wallabies where you could argue that the team fields the best 15 players in the country or close to it, I would doubt that the best 15 players in the country are necessarily playing for the Australian Schoolboy team.

I keep harping on about it but the way forward isn't to weaken Uni. If you think that Uni recruit too many schoolboy rep players then contribute suggestions of ways to make it more enticing for these players to play for other clubs. At the end of the day the players should be able to play for whichever club they wish.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

But what happens to the club who takes on a raw product like Gigantor Skelton who comes from outside the NSW Schoolboys/Aust Schoolboys/GPS machine, and through their development turns him into a professional Soup rugby player attracting a hod load of player points?

He arrives at (or stays with) club x with no player points because he was unwanted by the Schoolboy selectors. He works his buttocks off in the Colts programme with Club X and gets noticed as a late developer and is selected for Representative honours, and thus starts to attract player points, perhaps sufficient to push his current club over the upper limit if they retain him.

Having played more than 50% of the available games in the previous season at a high level, any receiving club may also be reluctant to register him because of the points that he would attract as a transferee.

 

[the coach]

^^^ Maybe the mandarins at SRU are p***d off that he went across the border to play for the Ponies, and this is their way to get back at him.

I wouldn't put such pettiness past the Heavy Hitters from Rugby's Underground.

You are right the coach. Something needs to be done about the points system, but what?

Most proposals put forward on this thread have loopholes that would be exploited by the clubs.

Not that I can quote an example, but should Uni be penalised for a loyal player such as Phil Waugh who may not have been a Petersham or Canturbury Junior, but has been with them for ever. Forcing players to change clubs because they have too many points would undermine some of the traditional values of Clubland.

Hugh, my understaning is that the loyalty discount was introduced as a TEMPORARY measure so clubs would not be forced to jettison long serving players when the points system was first introduced. It was only to be applied to current long serving rep players at the time of introduction and it was expected that after a period of time, during which clubs would have time to adjust, the loyalty discount would be gradually reduced or removed. Several years down the track it's still there and no signs of any changes.

I keeping trying to make the point that the points system was introduced to spread the talent and stop clubs from pinching players from other clubs and it's clearly not achieving this so either scrap it or fix it.

Clubs can still pinch players as long as they do it before they've played 50 first grade games = no penalty.

 

[Late Starter]

If the above isn't stupid enough I just noticed that Stephen Hoiles who hasn't played for 2 years and came off the bench in 2nd grade was hit with 20 player points !!!

Surely that can't be right when we've got current S15 players and recent test players with 0 points???

He's been with Randwick since under 10's why hasn't he got a 100% discount or does that only apply to Uni who have no juniors?????

Yours sincerely,
Really pissed off now !!!

TC I entirely agree that something is seriously wrong if Stephen Hoiles attracts maximum player points for Randwick.

 

[Dave Beat]

Shute starts and finishes with the Soup. Stops the distorted back end of the season.
Then another comp starts and it includes the best of club rugby (Grade & Colts), and the returning Super players.

 

[the coach]

But what happens to the club who takes on a raw product like Gigantor Skelton who comes from outside the NSW Schoolboys/Aust Schoolboys/GPS machine, and through their development turns him into a professional Soup rugby player attracting a hod load of player points?

He arrives at (or stays with) club x with no player points because he was unwanted by the Schoolboy selectors. He works his buttocks off in the Colts programme with Club X and gets noticed as a late developer and is selected for Representative honours, and thus starts to attract player points, perhaps sufficient to push his current club over the upper limit if they retain him.

Having played more than 50% of the available games in the previous season at a high level, any receiving club may also be reluctant to register him because of the points that he would attract as a transferee.

There are plenty of clubs with room in their cap to sign players like him. Uni don't sign any player unless they see future potential and my expectation was that the points system would inevitably force Uni to shed some players or stop signing youngsters, but that has not occurred. In fact, I would suggest the points system has not impacted Uni at all. Their main problem is that you can only have 15 guys on the field at the same time and they have 50 to choose from!

As I've said before, I'm not bashing Uni here and the concentration of talent at Uni with their great facilities is good for Australian Rugby but could be the death knell for the SS unless there are changes.

 

[rugbyvet]

I actually think Sydney Uni being so dominate is actually hurting NSW rugby as well. Uni players have dominated the nsw squad for past 5-10 years and look at the result- a few runners up medals from Australian rugbys greatest nursery.
I have a theory- Sydney uni 1st grade players are always playing in a dominate team and many of your skills aren't truly tested until when under pressure. for example when was the last time a university back has played behind a pack which hasnt been going forward? So when they get picked for NsW (and they virtually always do) they are missing a few rugby ingredients I believe.

I could be wrong but when was the last Sydney uni player to really dominate at super 15 level or test rugby level? ( please exclude ppl like dan vickerman and Berrick Barnes ) dave Dennis yes, phil Waugh yes - Bernard foley I think will ....but not many others and they have 25 contracted players every year probably. Yes they provide workman type players eg tom carter but the physical dominance they show at club level doesn't work at higher levels when everyone else also trains full time.
Anyway just a thought

 

[Late Starter]

rugbyvet I think you pose a reasonable argument. I have occasionally wondered why more Uni players do not represent the Wallabies when there are so many of them playing Super rugby. Having said that, I think that while Uni might facilitate the step up from club to super level, the next step up to international level should really be largely due to the players' development by their Super franchise and not their club.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Continuing the Player Points system sub-thread.

Does anyone know what they do in NZ Clubland to "level" the playing fields between clubs in their premier grades?

There are some scary parallels over there with the way their Schoolboy rugby in Auckland is going to what is happening here in the NSW AAGPS competition, with the top 5 schools getting better at attracting all the talented athletes and the rest not getting a look in.

One can assume therefore that they may be facing similar challenges in their club competition.

My kiwi snout, who was formerly associated with the Wellington Axemen club, says that they used to struggle to raise enough money to pay for insurance on the clubrooms, let alone player payments. He doesn't seem to think that there is any sort of restriction like salary caps, or player points caps in the Wellington club competition.

 

[It is what it is]

I actually think Sydney Uni being so dominate is actually hurting NSW rugby as well. Uni players have dominated the nsw squad for past 5-10 years and look at the result- a few runners up medals from Australian rugbys greatest nursery.
I have a theory- Sydney uni 1st grade players are always playing in a dominate team and many of your skills aren't truly tested until when under pressure. for example when was the last time a university back has played behind a pack which hasnt been going forward? So when they get picked for NsW (and they virtually always do) they are missing a few rugby ingredients I believe.

I could be wrong but when was the last Sydney uni player to really dominate at super 15 level or test rugby level? ( please exclude ppl like dan vickerman and Berrick Barnes ) dave Dennis yes, phil Waugh yes - Bernard foley I think will ..but not many others and they have 25 contracted players every year probably. Yes they provide workman type players eg tom carter but the physical dominance they show at club level doesn't work at higher levels when everyone else also trains full time.
Anyway just a thought

Bingo.

 

[George Hipwall]

Bingo.

I was thinking something along those lines on Saturday when Jeremy Tilse was on the sideline warming up for SUFC.

This isn't about the individual but rather the system. Who really gets the best value out of a player like Jeremy Tilse?

There is a player who has been in the system for a long period of time. He trains yearly, has barely had much game time or games for NSW. He comes back to SS and is on the bench for SUFC. He's debuted for NSW in 2006 and has since received 25 caps. I do not know what his record for SUFC is over that same period of time.

It must be frustrating for him as a player to go through this. He's been there or thereabout for such a long time. Without meaning to sound harsh (as I'm struggling to articulate it better) he's become a professional trainer.

I'm sure there are other players in that category throughout the Super 15 franchises. Tim Davidson?

Is this a good development outcome for club or province?

 

[southsider]

If Sydney University Rugby Club is going to be limited to playing only Students from that institution that the Club is associated with, then the Wicks should only be allowed to register players who reside within Randwick Council area. Same with Beasts and Waverley/Wollahra Council, Hobbits and Sutherland Shire Council, and so on. This would be unworkable.

don't actually see this as the worst thing in the world, obviously a lot of people would have problems with it but theres also a lot of positives

 

[Hugh Jarse]

At its most base level, club rugby is still a very tribal game, with passion and pride in the jumper you are wearing sometimes being the difference between teams, and thus the reason that less fancied teams are able to sometimes grab victory over a team full of rock stars.

That being said, I think that there may be some merit in exploring a concept of "Loaning" players between clubs for short periods to improve the chances of more even games for teams at the bottom of the table.

 

[Stag XV]

I can't help but draw parallels between the lopsided Shute Shield and the failure over the last 10 years of our Super Rugby provinces and the Wallabies.

University have been incredibly successful over that period, and have provided a bulk of the players moving into the professional ranks. Eastwood and Manly have similarly performed well during that time. These clubs have rightly looked forward to matches against eachother as being season-defining, there being no other sustained competition.

But I wonder whether it may have produced kids who have never had to really fight week to week, and have always had the best available coaches and facilities. When push comes to shove in the Super finals we have no mongrel, and the Test on Saturday just emphasises the point.

 

[the coach]

Unfortunately I doubt anyone from the NSWRU or SRU (whoever they are) gives a rat's arse about any of the concerns expressed above. We're told the admin brains have been working "for some time" on a revamp of the SS and we should expect "an announcement shortly". I wonder who they consulted and whether they saw any point or need in asking the supporters or even the clubs themselves for input.

(PS: I think I might know the answer to the above questions!)

 

[the coach]

I was thinking something along those lines on Saturday when Jeremy Tilse was on the sideline warming up for SUFC.

This isn't about the individual but rather the system. Who really gets the best value out of a player like Jeremy Tilse?

There is a player who has been in the system for a long period of time. He trains yearly, has barely had much game time or games for NSW. He comes back to SS and is on the bench for SUFC. He's debuted for NSW in 2006 and has since received 25 caps. I do not know what his record for SUFC is over that same period of time.

It must be frustrating for him as a player to go through this. He's been there or thereabout for such a long time. Without meaning to sound harsh (as I'm struggling to articulate it better) he's become a professional trainer.

I'm sure there are other players in that category throughout the Super 15 franchises. Tim Davidson?

Is this a good development outcome for club or province?

Good point George!
Jeremy (and others) would benefit from playing against SUFC and maybe even SUFC would benefit from playing against some of their own players at other clubs. I think this is the point: having all the talent in the one club does NOT lift the overall standard or even ensure the players in that club ever reach their full potential.

 

[George Hipwall]

Good point George!
Jeremy (and others) would benefit from playing against SUFC and maybe even SUFC would benefit from playing against some of their own players at other clubs. I think this is the point: having all the talent in the one club does NOT lift the overall standard or even ensure the players in that club ever reach their full potential.

Succinctly put Coach. In effect, they are a production line of talent that stays stagnant in the one pool