Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Wish there was a guarantee - Fuck he might suffer another in.... - The bloke is good, lots of potential -0 show me now !!!
Reds 2014
- Thread starter Troy
- Start date
- Status
Wish there was a guarantee - Fuck he might suffer another in.... - The bloke is good, lots of potential -0 show me now !!!
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
How droll. Did it take long to come up with that?
Scoey
Tony Shaw (54)
Troy's post was fine. But if we're having a go at poor contributions, yours doesn't add much to the discussion.
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Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
For mine the Reds look very flat and lack any real impact away from the key players of Genia, Cooper and Horwill. Too much reliance on these three and if we examine recent history of the Reds we can see how that has come to be with the loss of Ioane, Morahan, Higginbotham and IMO Peter Hynes.
These three backs in particular could be counted on to provide the options in attack that would have the defences thinking about where to align to. In the forwards Samo could be counted on to provide impact at the ruck and yet another attacking threat, while Higginbotham was a constant threat two off the ruck and wider.
Now consider who the Reds have recruited and/or developed to fill those gaps:-
Backs:
Shipperly - I was a big fan early on when I saw him playing a club game. I am very worried that his development seems to have stalled and may in fact be regressing. Is he injured again, or just never fully recovered.
CFS - Vast potential, but he really hasn't shown it yet consistently.
Toua - not being to unkind to say he reminds me a Peter Betham in his poor security, execution and decision making.
Turner - a very good tradesman who has always struggled to beat a man one on one. Has huge pace and I have never really understood why the first state proves true in that case. In any event he is a bit like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (but he can and does pass) in that he is Mr reliable. He rarely has a shocker and at wing, 15 or 13 he is a very good defender and generally executes base skills well.
Fowards:-
anybody standing out here to replace Samo and Higgers? Not IMO
Where has the long and even medium term planning been to replace these players? It is not as if the majority of them (Ioane, Hynes, Samo and Morahan) leaving was all that surprising.
I don't think it is time to write off the Reds by any stretch of the imagination, at least in relation to the Australian Conference, but without some serious rebuilding they will at best just hold the better teams and maybe given them a run for their money. I cannot see them regularly defeating the better sides with their squad and the manner in which they are playing.
As Redshappy said earlier in this thread a team realistically cannot afford to lose more than four games and have safe hopes of a home final. They need to win with a few bonus points along the way to really be in the hunt.
It is a bit unkind to lay all this at the feet of Richard Graham, because these inadequacies in the squad have been building for a number of years. But Graham will end up wearing the fallout because he is the pilot currently.
Anybody doubting this really should look at the current points table for a great example of the lack of Reds thrust. The conservative play the percentages Foley led Force currently has scored more points and conceded less than the Reds.
Finally as to solutions this year,
1. Slipper should go to THP. Does it need explaining?
2. Tapuai MUST be at 12. I don't see any value in him at 13. He is not a 13 and I have never seen him play well in the position, whereas at 12 he was pushing to be rated the best in Oz at one stage.
3. Turner can ably play wing, 13 and 15. I would suggest 13 as this enables Harris to play at 15 which provides a better boot and a back up place kicker to Cooper. It does hamper the counter attack somewhat, but, you have to make the best of the limited squad and come up with the best balance of skills.
These three backs in particular could be counted on to provide the options in attack that would have the defences thinking about where to align to. In the forwards Samo could be counted on to provide impact at the ruck and yet another attacking threat, while Higginbotham was a constant threat two off the ruck and wider.
Now consider who the Reds have recruited and/or developed to fill those gaps:-
Backs:
Shipperly - I was a big fan early on when I saw him playing a club game. I am very worried that his development seems to have stalled and may in fact be regressing. Is he injured again, or just never fully recovered.
CFS - Vast potential, but he really hasn't shown it yet consistently.
Toua - not being to unkind to say he reminds me a Peter Betham in his poor security, execution and decision making.
Turner - a very good tradesman who has always struggled to beat a man one on one. Has huge pace and I have never really understood why the first state proves true in that case. In any event he is a bit like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (but he can and does pass) in that he is Mr reliable. He rarely has a shocker and at wing, 15 or 13 he is a very good defender and generally executes base skills well.
Fowards:-
anybody standing out here to replace Samo and Higgers? Not IMO
Where has the long and even medium term planning been to replace these players? It is not as if the majority of them (Ioane, Hynes, Samo and Morahan) leaving was all that surprising.
I don't think it is time to write off the Reds by any stretch of the imagination, at least in relation to the Australian Conference, but without some serious rebuilding they will at best just hold the better teams and maybe given them a run for their money. I cannot see them regularly defeating the better sides with their squad and the manner in which they are playing.
As Redshappy said earlier in this thread a team realistically cannot afford to lose more than four games and have safe hopes of a home final. They need to win with a few bonus points along the way to really be in the hunt.
It is a bit unkind to lay all this at the feet of Richard Graham, because these inadequacies in the squad have been building for a number of years. But Graham will end up wearing the fallout because he is the pilot currently.
Anybody doubting this really should look at the current points table for a great example of the lack of Reds thrust. The conservative play the percentages Foley led Force currently has scored more points and conceded less than the Reds.
Finally as to solutions this year,
1. Slipper should go to THP. Does it need explaining?
2. Tapuai MUST be at 12. I don't see any value in him at 13. He is not a 13 and I have never seen him play well in the position, whereas at 12 he was pushing to be rated the best in Oz at one stage.
3. Turner can ably play wing, 13 and 15. I would suggest 13 as this enables Harris to play at 15 which provides a better boot and a back up place kicker to Cooper. It does hamper the counter attack somewhat, but, you have to make the best of the limited squad and come up with the best balance of skills.
T
tranquility
Guest
So out of all that prolix analysis, for lack of a better word. You would suggest that the Reds play;
12. Taps ,13. Turner, 15. Harris.
To make the best use of our "limited squad".
Thank-you Gnostic, that will be all.
12. Taps ,13. Turner, 15. Harris.
To make the best use of our "limited squad".
Thank-you Gnostic, that will be all.
Scoey
Tony Shaw (54)
Hynes, Morahan, Higginbotham and to a lesser extent, Digby all came through our system as young players as far as I'm aware.
So to point to them as examples of where our recruitment has failed I think is a self defeating argument. We're doing what took us to our Championship in 2011.
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So to point to them as examples of where our recruitment has failed I think is a self defeating argument. We're doing what took us to our Championship in 2011.
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T
tranquility
Guest
That is developing players within our own system, and backing our culture to reproduce more talented players. We replaced Higgers internally by promoting Quirk and handing the 8 spot to Shatz who was our dogsbody backrower at the time. Iaone has been replaced essentially by Sautia, and whether on purpose or not Turner is a like for like of Hynes. This is what we do, we start the process again and back the nurseries.
How do you think the Tahs would be going this year without Israel?
How do you think the Tahs would be going this year without Israel?
T
Tip
Guest
How is he meant to gain consistency if you want to drop him after 2 games in his preferred position!?
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
To be fair, Israel was a recruit. As was Radike to the Reds.
While developing players within the system is absolutely the right thing to do, targeted recruitment and selection is also needed to fill the gaps if they seriously want to win the comp. – And again, to be fair, not all teams are targeting the very top. Many are content to aim for the top 6-8, and bide their time for future seasons.
To put it blunt, the pack lacks grunt.
IMO, the Reds are covered okay from 4 to 7 (and 2) but are still a couple players short in the pack to be up with the best. They were bullied by the Sharks and Waratahs. In the backs, they probably need one more as well – to either step up or be brought in.
A couple of the right recruits could make all the difference.
T
tranquility
Guest
Absolutely, to not look outside QLD or any marketplace would be irresponsible. However the question was, what had been done to replace those players. What QLD needs most of all that we do not have, either in our squad or waiting in the wings is a TH prop and a mature large bodied backrower.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Yep. It's easier to just go with what you know but there should be some changes happening continuously. The Reds seem to have rested on their 2011 laurels for a bit.
I posted the link below somewhere in one of the match threads after seeing the strength of Argentine Pampas team. They are practically begging for a super franchise to hire their players.
Admittedly, those guys would not be around in 16 months time but it could still allow time for longer-term development/recruitment. Whatever way the Reds do it, though, they should be focused on strengthening the pack.
I posted the link below somewhere in one of the match threads after seeing the strength of Argentine Pampas team. They are practically begging for a super franchise to hire their players.
Admittedly, those guys would not be around in 16 months time but it could still allow time for longer-term development/recruitment. Whatever way the Reds do it, though, they should be focused on strengthening the pack.
Props? Anae would be in the mix but they could still look as a priority to recruit alongside him and Slipper in the front row (maybe even short-term), and Holmes could do with some competition.
Sandpit Fan
Nev Cottrell (35)
Isn't Dave McDuling expected to fill this position, assuming he is past his injuries?
T
TOCC
Guest
CFS is the 13, playing Turner there would be a massive mistake...
The current table isn't really a massive marker to go by, the Force have played two teams expected to finish bottom of their conference, Reds have played conference leaders
The current table isn't really a massive marker to go by, the Force have played two teams expected to finish bottom of their conference, Reds have played conference leaders
Scotty
David Codey (61)
Chris Latham had average ball security and poor defense when he started. Beale (who Toua is very similar to) still has sometimes average ball security but has gotten better and better. Digby had average hands his whole career.
They are all considered elite rugby player and I have no doubt that given time Aiden will end up the same.
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Reckon recruiting Laurie Weeks back tio Ballymore would be fantasrtic and would offer great coverage in limited front row stocks.
T
tranquility
Guest
Absolutely and I hope he does, however as it stands he has never played a game of Super Rugby. That will probably change this weekend though. Lobbe from Argentina would be a good signing.
T
Tip
Guest
Am I the only one here that thinks our front row stocks are fine as they are?
Slipper(24), Holmes (30), Daley(25) are all very good props.
Anae (25) Owen (27) are both worth developing.
Most props hit their prime at 30 so I don't see the need to go for a Laurie Weeks type player.
@USARugger hit the nail on the head, the deficiencies in our forward pack are more to do with the lack of a penetrating ball running backrower. Quirk and Shatz are workhorses however they aren't line benders that provide consistent go forward. I think both these players are 5 kilo's short on where the Reds need them to be.
I can't wait to see Browning come off the bench later this season.
Slipper(24), Holmes (30), Daley(25) are all very good props.
Anae (25) Owen (27) are both worth developing.
Most props hit their prime at 30 so I don't see the need to go for a Laurie Weeks type player.
@USARugger hit the nail on the head, the deficiencies in our forward pack are more to do with the lack of a penetrating ball running backrower. Quirk and Shatz are workhorses however they aren't line benders that provide consistent go forward. I think both these players are 5 kilo's short on where the Reds need them to be.
I can't wait to see Browning come off the bench later this season.
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
Re Toua
Can anyone tell me how many times he has broken/avoided the first tackler this season?
Yes I know his ball security is not good at times. Yes I know his kicking leaves a lot to be desired, but I can see real improvement here between the Brumbies game and the Sharks game.
We are all bitchen that we don't have a player to break/bend the defensive line but we have one here. The bigger issue I see is that the other guys around him need to get used to the fact that they need to run like hell after him because he once he hits that line he is likely to get through the first 1 or 2 tackles and is not going to pass it so they need to be there to protect the ball and make the off-load possible.
Does he frustrate me - fark yes, but QC (Quade Cooper) frustrates the crap out of me at times too. Are we talking about dropping him? No we have got used to QC (Quade Cooper) and all the brilliance & crap that comes with it.
Do I think that we have better options at 15? Not really. I would love to see JJ have a run there but that is not going to happen cold now. I also think that Mikey needs to be left at 12 and Turner at 14.
As I see our best back line at the moment:
9 Genia
10 Cooper
11
12 Harris
13 CFS
14 Turner
15 Toua
I have left 11 blank for a reason. Not sure who to put here. Shippers has not shown the form that he had last year but I also see that he is playing a more 'digbyseque' game plan this year so not sure it can all be laid at his feet.
And yes I will accept the "I told you so's" about CFS at 13. He is proving me wrong. Now we just need Ant to pass on his defensive knowledge.
Can anyone tell me how many times he has broken/avoided the first tackler this season?
Yes I know his ball security is not good at times. Yes I know his kicking leaves a lot to be desired, but I can see real improvement here between the Brumbies game and the Sharks game.
We are all bitchen that we don't have a player to break/bend the defensive line but we have one here. The bigger issue I see is that the other guys around him need to get used to the fact that they need to run like hell after him because he once he hits that line he is likely to get through the first 1 or 2 tackles and is not going to pass it so they need to be there to protect the ball and make the off-load possible.
Does he frustrate me - fark yes, but QC (Quade Cooper) frustrates the crap out of me at times too. Are we talking about dropping him? No we have got used to QC (Quade Cooper) and all the brilliance & crap that comes with it.
Do I think that we have better options at 15? Not really. I would love to see JJ have a run there but that is not going to happen cold now. I also think that Mikey needs to be left at 12 and Turner at 14.
As I see our best back line at the moment:
9 Genia
10 Cooper
11
12 Harris
13 CFS
14 Turner
15 Toua
I have left 11 blank for a reason. Not sure who to put here. Shippers has not shown the form that he had last year but I also see that he is playing a more 'digbyseque' game plan this year so not sure it can all be laid at his feet.
And yes I will accept the "I told you so's" about CFS at 13. He is proving me wrong. Now we just need Ant to pass on his defensive knowledge.
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