Stormers vs Waratahs Round 10 @ Newlands

[fatprop]

I would suggest that we don't get too far ahead of ourselves with this win

There is still plenty to work on, like props collapsing through pretty average set up, rubbish lineout, defence of rucks against a pick and drive and mid field defense

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Beat the Cheetahs this week & you're second in the Strayan Conf & still with a game in hand. Pretty handy place to be, I'd have thought...........

 

[Braveheart81]

Beat the Cheetahs this week & you're second in the Strayan Conf & still with a game in hand. Pretty handy place to be, I'd have thought.....

We should be top of the Australian conference if we beat the Cheetahs with a bonus point this weekend depending on how the Brumbies rebound against the Bulls. The Brumbies will need to play better than they have been to beat the Bulls.

The Cheetahs have been our bogey team in the past but surely we've moved on from that.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oops! Got a week ahead of myself there so, yes, 'tahs BP win plus Brums non-BP win, draw or loss means 'tahs go top, Rebs having the bye.

 

[Marcelo]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oops! Got a week ahead of myself there so, yes, 'tahs BP win plus Brums non-BP win, draw or loss means 'tahs go top, Rebs having the bye.

Do u like Iron Maiden?

 

[fatprop]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oops! Got a week ahead of myself there so, yes, 'tahs BP win plus Brums non-BP win, draw or loss means 'tahs go top, Rebs having the bye.

The Tahs have the Canes, Chiefs, saders and Bulls over the next few weeks, I think we need to keep our heads down, it could still get ugly.

 

[ForceFan]

ForceFan, I don't agree. The team decides who is going to play on the ball, and off the ball, and when. Holloway plays consistently in the wide channels, not because he's a 'seagull' but because he's deliberately positioned there. He doesn't 'have' to do anything like what you say. He might be assigned to in the future. Or he might not. Currently the Waratahs have other players performing that work.

I didn't use the word "seagull", as he's shown that he's very likely capable of more

I was just looking at Holloway's game compared to other No 8s.

I reckon he needs to show that he's capable of playing the other roles that will be required in Test match rugby.

He has made more than 13 rucks in only a single game - against the Force.

He has never made more than 5 Defensive Rucks - again against the Force.

My point was....there is a certain amount of Defensive work required to be done by any team and some players in the team need to fill that gap. Some of that defensive work can only be provided by Forwards.

In last year's RWC final our Forwards were totally outdone by the All Blacks.
IF we really want to improve against the All Blacks we need to address those issues and not simply fill the team with ball running Forwards.

 

[Pfitzy]

If we're winning games with a decent level of fitness and structure, only one statistic will count.

 

[Braveheart81]

Surely a substantial amount of this relates to game plan and coaching.

Teams that try to attack the breakdown are going to have a lot more defensive ruck involvements than teams that don't.

The Rebels attack the breakdown more than any other team this season and that is reflected in the number of turnovers they've won. Whether it ultimately proves to be the best tactic remains to be seen.

If a team isn't contesting as many defensive breakdowns then the attacking team needs less attacking breakdown involvement and this seems to have been the case in the Stormers v Waratahs game. Neither team were going particularly hard at the breakdown and preferred to keep a longer defensive line.

One of the problems for many teams is the ability to respond to what the opposition is doing. We didn't do that well enough in the RWC final and got beaten by a pack that was competing harder at the breakdown.

It's all very well to have a game plan and hope to stick to it regardless of what the opposition does but certain tactics need to be met otherwise you will fail. If a team is flooding the breakdown then you need to dedicate more numbers there otherwise you won't have the ball to make use of the extra players you have in the wider channels.

I guess what would be valid is looking at Holloway's ruck involvement as a percentage of his team's total defensive ruck involvements and comparing that percentage to other teams.

 

[Hawko]

The Tahs have the Canes, Chiefs, saders and Bulls over the next few weeks, I think we need to keep our heads down, it could still get ugly.

A team always needs to keep its head down, especially the Tahs.

Of those games, only the Crusaders game is away and I reckon that game, particularly if its a close loss, is the only one we can afford to lose. I am expecting that the last round will decide our season - away to the Blues at bloody Eden Park, scene of so many Australian disasters.

I reckon our forwards have to improve 25% more to be competitive with the three big NZ teams. I want to see more ruck involvement from our front row, all three of them. Now that Jeremy and Angus have realised that you have to push to win a scrum, maybe the starting front row can go much harder for 50 and then have the back-ups on for a longer stint. Our forwards will determine our 2016

 

[Gagger]

This is where my suggestion for the front page stats was going to be FF (Folau Fainga'a) - that instead of looking at raw number of involvements, you do it as a ratio:

If a team only has 55 defensive rucks, what % or ratio of those rucks does a player hit? This means if they choose a ball in hand strategy, or play the Highlanders, players aren't penalised when there just aren't the number of defensive rucks.

Similarly, probably the most important measure at the ruck is EFFICIENCY. One of the things pro coaches point out is when teams are overcommitting at the breakdown. Even worse when they're overcommitting and still not getting the result (like the Force on Fri).

So the ultimate measure would be some sort of number of players committed per ruck (involvements), divided by turnovers won or lost (or even more interesting but difficult: speed of ball)

I was thinking that you could then have these ultimate stats the simple headline numbers, rather than all the detail (or with the detail as backup)

thoughts?

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Do u like Iron Maiden?

Hell no, I think they're shite. I do like the artwork, tho, esp the Frenchman with his legs in the air & the Strayan on all fours looking for whatever...................

 

[Brumby Runner]

In last year's RWC final our Forwards were totally outdone by the All Blacks.
IF we really want to improve against the All Blacks we need to address those issues and not simply fill the team with ball running Forwards.

I hear you, but apart from Hooper, just who are the ball running forwards who consistently make the Wallabies starting 15? I think Holloway could be exactly the type of player with the skills we require to put a dent in opposition defenses.

 

[Pfitzy]

I hear you, but apart from Hooper, just who are the ball running forwards who consistently make the Wallabies starting 15? I think Holloway could be exactly the type of player with the skills we require to put a dent in opposition defenses.

And also the guy with enough pace at 8 to turn those half-breaks into linebreaks, like Kieran Read. I want my big boys to run at the space and accelerate through it.

Besides "Old Faithful" McCalman, not a lot of options, really.

 

[fatprop]

I hear you, but apart from Hooper, just who are the ball running forwards who consistently make the Wallabies starting 15? I think Holloway could be exactly the type of player with the skills we require to put a dent in opposition defenses.

Holloway is an edge, gap runner. Not a crashballer, the issue is generally getting go forward from static or stalled ball

 

[ForceFan]

I want to see more ruck involvement from our front row, all three of them.

Against the Stormers, Tom Robertson showed more of what's needed from Aussie Forwards. His key stats were:

Ruck Involvements: 25 Total (18 Attack/7 Defence)
His 7 Defence Rucks were ~20% of those made by the Forwards.
(Hooper 30% and Skelton 22%.)
Tackles: 14 (2nd behind Hooper's 15)

 

[Hawko]

Against the Stormers, Tom Robertson showed more of what's needed from Aussie Forwards. His key stats were:

Ruck Involvements: 25 Total (18 Attack/7 Defence)
His 7 Defence Rucks were ~20% of those made by the Forwards.
(Hooper 30% and Skelton 22%.)
Tackles: 14 (2nd behind Hooper's 15)

I wanted to "like" this post but like just wasn't enough. We have found our new THP and his name's not Ta'avao, despite the last scrum tighthead.

 

[ForceFan]

I know he's not going to be able to help the Tahs or the Wallabies but in the same way James Hagan, Irishman, showed what's needed from our Front Rowers in his 1st run-on for the Rebels against the Blues.

34 Ruck Involvements (32A/2D) in just 60 minutes of rugby.
Now that's supporting your team's ball carriers and providing some bulk when needed.

 

[Braveheart81]

He does a great impression of James Hanson too.

 

[Pfitzy]

Look, stats are fine, and sometimes necessary, but you can't judge every forward on the same stats.

My 2nd Grade side has a lot of big chaps in it, and I expect them to run the ball and hurt people on defence a lot. But I also have 3-4 smaller guys there because I know they're the ones covering rucks, cleaning up dumb shit flick passes from backs, and generally doing the donkey work.

If Holloway is running last in the "rucks covered" stat but winning the "tries scored" stat as well as helping the team to victory, I don't really give a shit. Could he do better? Yes. But if it affects his abilities elsewhere, and it unbalances things for the team, then its a net loss.