How to fix the wallabies

[KOB1987]

Your expectations are fine then. It's actually not the forumites' expectations that need to be managed, we are all relatively knowledgeable and realistic, we don't all have the same ideals and we have different views to the makeup of the best team, but as a group we all share a common agenda of wanting to see the Wallabies perform at the level they are capable of, and with a fair and rewarding selection policy.

It's the administrators' expectations that need to be managed, in an attempt to conquer Everest at the professional level they are changing the laws and disregarding the game at the grassroots and development levels.

 

[wamberal]

Meanwhile, in the real world, a friend of mine whose son plays under 14s on the Gold Coast has been informed that there will be no under 15s competition there next year, the kid will have to play in Brisbane.


The sixth biggest "city" in Australia, and 25% of the population are Kiwis, allegedly.


All the ARU'S fault.

 

[RedsHappy]

So TL;DR: the ARU has to go through what the QRU and reds went through in 2009 to become good again?

Something similar. When since 2004 has any part of the ARU and State RUs thoroughly reformed themselves with clearly positive results without a major crisis on their doorsteps?

Generally the typically inbred cultures of those bodies, coupled with poor leadership, has led to institutional degradation not positive reformation. The results are there for all to see.

 

[RedsHappy]

I keep hearing this "we need to manage our expectations". I don't agree. I dont think our expectations on this forum are that high.

I think most posters here would be happy with a performance of say our NZ v Aus match in 2013 Dunedin - you know the game where Cooper had a blinder.

We still lost, but the forums weren't exactly lighting up afterward, we had a good crack and it was great footy to watch. 99% of us were happy with that effort. If NZ made a few uncharacteristic errors we have a chance to scrap through a win.

That is my expectations. Given the difference in depth of players and general skill of NZ and Aus they should still beat us the majority of time but not by bloody 40 points.

That game in 2013 should be the norm and I don't think its unreasonable to think it can be.

A 3-nil whitewash to England at home followed up by a record loss at home is something well below anyones expectations. I was expecting a 2-1 loss to England, and the normal 10 point loss to NZ - not that I would be happy with that but our current crop is even well below that standard.

Well said. And I for one see little point in retaining a deep affection and passion for a sport if one 'keeps on lowering expectations' that one's local team or country can play it really well and have some level of sustainable success in doing so.

That categorically does not mean we expect to see AB-like w-l ratios at all times, but it does mean consistently high standards in skills, a degree of consistency of outcomes, losses that are not routine or numerous debacles and collapses and, importantly, relative improvement over time not degradation over time and, finally, great attitude and intensity, that shining light that is undeniable effort and grit.

 

[The torpedo]

Well said. And I for one see little point in retaining a deep affection and passion for a sport if one 'keeps on lowering expectations' that one's local team or country can play it really well and have some level of sustainable success in doing so.

That categorically does not mean we expect to see AB-like w-l ratios at all times, but it does mean consistently high standards in skills, a degree of consistency of outcomes, losses that are not routine or numerous debacles and collapses and, importantly, relative improvement over time not degradation over time and, finally, great attitude and intensity, that shining light that is undeniable effort and grit.

Not to mention winning the majority of our matches

 

[dru]

All the ARU'S fault.

You've got a whole thread for that malarky. Is it necessary here?

 

[RedsHappy]

Your right Aussie D about Link, and I think it sums up why the current predicament is so difficult.

The team was as listless as I've ever seen it on Saturday. So you want to point fingers at coaches, players, administrators.

But I just saw the World Cup! I fucking know these guys can do it! I saw Ledesma turn our scrum into a weapon, I saw Bernie Larkham draw great work from Bernard Foley and I saw Nathan Grey orchestrate a defensive performance that saw us hold out Wales with 13 men.

That's what makes this so weird for me. These coaches haven't all of a sudden turned into failures.

It's similar to Link - a few bad months doesn't turn him into a bad coach. The results he achieved with Queensland were astounding, akin to what Cheika did at the Tahs.

This game is so fickle, so infuriating sometimes. I'm not sure you can 'fix' this, or find lessons in it. Eventually we will start winning games again, sure. But it's the last few months have been totally perplexing.
.

Is it so perplexing?

- we had a pretty good run-up campaign pre the RWC, an extended period for the team to gel

- we played Wales who we have consistently beaten for years now and not a well-coached team

- we played an England that was also, certainly in that period, not well coached and based around some serious selection oddities during the RWC (we soon came to see what England could do when much better coached by EJ (Eddie Jones) and under a totally new coaching team in 2016)

- the team of lesser lights in overall player quality terms, Scotland, that IMO was well coached by Cotter and who clearly worked out our vulnerabilities, very, very nearly knocked us over

(NB: before anything is said, I am NOT detracting from the RWC Wallaby achievements, I was delighted by them, but in the cold light of day the competitive quality of the then opposition must also be analysed in context.)

- as we entered and finished the 2016 Super season, the coaching, playing, skills and fitness caliber of most if not all of our Super teams were in aggregate generally mediocre to very poor. Good Australian coaching was rarely evident anywhere, two Aus Super coaches were justifiably sacked, the Brumbies and Tahs were slowing degrading from years past, etc with the essential truth being that the best 30-40 Aus players exited this Super season in a poor state with no doubt inner confidence levels probably lower than they have been for a long time

- note that Cheika does not improve his national coaching team over this whole period, other than dispensing with the hapless Malone and, very late in the piece bringing in a badly needed M Byrne. He still lacks many 'normal' specialist national coaching positions that the best teams possess and his coaching team is, remarkably, mostly part-time

- then true disaster strikes - a 0-3 result at home v England in front of good home crowds. EJ (Eddie Jones) has quickly transformed England (and as above his whole coaching team) and equally ascertained all the weaknesses in Wallaby skills and that of our reckless yet sole playing doctrine of obsessive ball-in-hand rugby with no other options and variations. The 2016 England coaching group has figured out how to consistently dominate the Wallabies whereas in the 2015 RWC there was no evidence of that coaching skill

- even in T3 v England, we barely improve whilst England notably improves every game, this being a sure sign of a weakened and stressed Wallaby coaching group unable to innovate or dig its way out against a good, but certainly not outstanding, England team. Following this unprecedented debacle, surely the Wallaby players and coaching team left the series very badly scarred and shaken. The lack of consistent skills, the poor game plans, the endless unforced errors were really no better in T3 than in T1, it must have been a lingering devastation for the whole Wallaby system

- Enter Bled 1. Horror story of England series still fresh with attendant wiping out of all Wallaby RWC confidence, same coaches, similar playing group, and we are up against a superbly coached, still-improving AB team with a successful RWC campaign right behind them and invaluable video analysis from our England series highlighting serious Wallaby weaknesses that they'd know the same Wallaby coaching group would likely not fix, or fix quickly enough. They smelt blood and they knew how to suck it

So, when we assess the 2015-16 Wallaby and Aus Super season's matches' chronology, the resulting outcome sequence and the highly varying calibre of coaching and team oppositions we have faced, are the latest Wallaby outcomes really perplexing at all?

 

[Michael Optimist]

I think "fixing" the wallabies has already started. I think it started 2 years ago with the NRC. And I think that is giving us some short term pain for long term gain.

The NRC takes the best players and mixes them in with our next tier of players. That raises our tier two players, but what does it do to our top players? Do they really play their best in the second tier? Probably not - yet. That may drive some poor habits during game time by WB potentials, not big differences, but how much difference does 1% make at test level.

As the NRC quality continues to rise - and I think it has and will continue to do so - then our best players will rise and the whole player stock will rise around them. It is not quite root growth of the game, but it is at least branch growth.

In the mean time, expect another two years of being walloped occasionally and otherwise some inconsistent play and some games you have to watch through your fingers as we drop yet another ball with the try line beckoning. But it is a building phase - and will always have to be a building phase because they day we think the Wallabies are "fixed" is the day we stagnate and go backwards.

 

[BarneySF]

Your right Aussie D about Link, and I think it sums up why the current predicament is so difficult.

The team was as listless as I've ever seen it on Saturday. So you want to point fingers at coaches, players, administrators.

But I just saw the World Cup! I fucking know these guys can do it! I saw Ledesma turn our scrum into a weapon, I saw Bernie Larkham draw great work from Bernard Foley and I saw Nathan Grey orchestrate a defensive performance that saw us hold out Wales with 13 men.

That's what makes this so weird for me. These coaches haven't all of a sudden turned into failures.

It's similar to Link - a few bad months doesn't turn him into a bad coach. The results he achieved with Queensland were astounding, akin to what Cheika did at the Tahs.

This game is so fickle, so infuriating sometimes. I'm not sure you can 'fix' this, or find lessons in it. Eventually we will start winning games again, sure. But it's the last few months have been totally perplexing.
.

Someone said it earlier on another thread that it seems as if there is some sort of initial intensity with the change of regime but then that wears off and is then unsustainable. I seem to recall us beating the ABs early in deans tenure and then it all dropped off.

 

[The torpedo]

Someone said it earlier on another thread that it seems as if there is some sort of initial intensity with the change of regime but then that wears off and is then unsustainable. I seem to recall us beating the ABs early in deans tenure and then it all dropped off.

You could also say that about Link's tenure. (except that it started in the last game of TRC in 2013)

 

[Twoilms]

To truly fix the wallabies you would have to actually address the diseases which plague the game rather than the symptoms. Replacing a coach or bringing back Quade Cooper won't fix shit even if it somehow brings us a win next game.

Problem is, and this applies to most of the business world, short term improvements are easier to sell than long term investments, particularly to fans with a passing/passive interest in the sport. Long term needs like free-to-air games and a genuine youth presence outside GPS schools are useless to high level execs. Bill Pulver's disdain for grass root investment is pretty obvious.

Administration needs a clear out and whoever is brought in needs to by motivated by long-term incentives.

There needs to be a clear line of progression from U7s to Wallabies starting 15 with appropriate training and certfication for coaches along the production line.

One area i think we could actually improve short term is co-operation between states. It wouldn't be hard for them to sit down, agree on a standard level of fitness, skills and roughly a tactical style they should all be aiming for and possibly even train together occasionally.

Anyway, people have been pointing this out for the past 15 years at least and no one has done squat so i wouldn't hold your breath.

 

[old fella2]

My sydney raised son is playing at otago uni. EVERYONE, irrespective of background plays rugby. it has its own life force, social life etc. not just private school blokes. highlanders matches actively encourage 18-25 year olds. otago alone has a comp the same quality as the shute shield. and there about 5 of those comps. the culture is fantastic. until rugby in oz gets a culture like that, we cant hope to get close to NZ.

 

[Luvmyrugby]

Meanwhile, in the real world, a friend of mine whose son plays under 14s on the Gold Coast has been informed that there will be no under 15s competition there next year, the kid will have to play in Brisbane.





The sixth biggest "city" in Australia, and 25% of the population are Kiwis, allegedly.





All the ARU'S fault.

OH MY LORD.....and there's no Colts anywhere in QLD now except Brisbane.....

 

[Lorenzo]

Your right Aussie D about Link, and I think it sums up why the current predicament is so difficult.

The team was as listless as I've ever seen it on Saturday. So you want to point fingers at coaches, players, administrators.

But I just saw the World Cup! I fucking know these guys can do it! I saw Ledesma turn our scrum into a weapon, I saw Bernie Larkham draw great work from Bernard Foley and I saw Nathan Grey orchestrate a defensive performance that saw us hold out Wales with 13 men.

That's what makes this so weird for me. These coaches haven't all of a sudden turned into failures.

It's similar to Link - a few bad months doesn't turn him into a bad coach. The results he achieved with Queensland were astounding, akin to what Cheika did at the Tahs.

This game is so fickle, so infuriating sometimes. I'm not sure you can 'fix' this, or find lessons in it. Eventually we will start winning games again, sure. But it's the last few months have been totally perplexing.
.

It absolutely remains to be seen whether Cheika and McKenzie (or Deans) are good coaches at test level. Cheika's record against the 10N (4N + 6N) is 47%. Mckenzie was 50%. Deans, who obv had a lot longer with the team than either of the other two, was 57%.

All of these guys were highly decorated Super/NH province/club coaches and all have struggled in the wobs setup. Now, whilst one might say that we don't have the players for them to succeed, keep in mind that all of these guys had access at times to players that were participating in Super rugby winning sides. Deans in and around 2011, and Mckenzie/Cheika in and around 2014. So at least using Super Rugby performances as a metric, we must have have had some good to very good players in those period.

The issue is that Super Rugby/T14/H-cup success does not translate directly to test success and this is just as true for coaches as it is players.

 

[wamberal]

One long overdue first step has been announced, the intention to synchronise coaching at all levels of the game.


Way back in the sixties, I think it was, Dick Marks, former Test centre, took on the role of national coaching coordinator (not sure what the name was, but that was the intent). What a great pity that we did not stick with that concept.


When you are building, or rebuilding, you start with the basics, and the foundations of rugby are the basic skills, running, passing, catching, tackling, defensive alignments, kicking, set pieces, rucks, mauls.


Let's forget about fancy moves and so on at the lower levels of the game. Just get the basics right. That is what the New Zealanders seem to do. When did they last score a try from a fancy move? At any level?

 

[Quick Hands]

I think "fixing" the wallabies has already started. I think it started 2 years ago with the NRC. And I think that is giving us some short term pain for long term gain.

The NRC takes the best players and mixes them in with our next tier of players. That raises our tier two players, but what does it do to our top players? Do they really play their best in the second tier? Probably not - yet. That may drive some poor habits during game time by WB potentials, not big differences, but how much difference does 1% make at test level.

As the NRC quality continues to rise - and I think it has and will continue to do so - then our best players will rise and the whole player stock will rise around them. It is not quite root growth of the game, but it is at least branch growth.

In the mean time, expect another two years of being walloped occasionally and otherwise some inconsistent play and some games you have to watch through your fingers as we drop yet another ball with the try line beckoning. But it is a building phase - and will always have to be a building phase because they day we think the Wallabies are "fixed" is the day we stagnate and go backwards.

With all due respect, the problem begins well below NRC level.

There simply aren't enough young kids playing the game to make us an international force. There's a time lag involved in all of this. The downward spiral at junior level started 10 or 12 years ago and it's now hit the professional game. You're looking at a similar time frame to turn things around (at the very minimum)

 

[Luvmyrugby]

With all due respect, the problem begins well below NRC level.



There simply aren't enough young kids playing the game to make us an international force. There's a time lag involved in all of this. The downward spiral at junior level started 10 or 12 years ago and it's now hit the professional game. You're looking at a similar time frame to turn things around (at the very minimum)

YES! YES! YES! and the current admin are ignoring it, and focusing on the big end of town....

 

[Luvmyrugby]

It absolutely remains to be seen whether Cheika and McKenzie (or Deans) are good coaches at test level. Cheika's record against the 10N (4N + 6N) is 47%. Mckenzie was 50%. Deans, who obv had a lot longer with the team than either of the other two, was 57%.



All of these guys were highly decorated Super/NH province/club coaches and all have struggled in the wobs setup. Now, whilst one might say that we don't have the players for them to succeed, keep in mind that all of these guys had access at times to players that were participating in Super rugby winning sides. Deans in and around 2011, and Mckenzie/Cheika in and around 2014. So at least using Super Rugby performances as a metric, we must have have had some good to very good players in those period.



The issue is that Super Rugby/T14/H-cup success does not translate directly to test success and this is just as true for coaches as it is players.

Likewise for players. A player can be a super player at SuperRugby level. That doesn't mean he'll be able to perform at Test level. Plenty of examples.
Theres a big difference between the games. Last Saturday we allowed the ABs to play High Quality Super Rugby in a Test match. We were unable to "Test" them.

 

[louie]

Confidence and Self Belief
I see a big problem in the fixtures that OZ teams play at Super Rugby and International. We play the NZ teams more then anyone else. Seems like on a weekly basis we're having the confidence kicked out of us. Cheika needs to motivate the players to believe they can do something they've never been able to do with any consistency.

Coaching
All our super rugby coaches are crap. Remember when we had Link, Cheika, White, Fischer all at super rugby at the same time? Why are we letting great coaches leave? Link should never have left rugby in the way he did. We lost so much when he walked out the door.

Develop a Weapon
What are we world class at? Feels like nothing. Pick an area and become the best at it. Cheika talks a lot about having an identity. Seems like we have no ATM.

Players
The NRC will work. We just need to give it time. Long term Australia rugby is going in the right direction. Lets have faith.

 

[Quick Hands]

I certainly think that the players and the coaches are doing their best. But do I have "faith" that the people who are running the game in this country are moving in the right direction? Hmmm, I've seen nothing much at the grass roots level which give me any confidence that they truly appreciate the nature and depth of the problem.


Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing; or the observance of an obligation from loyalty; or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement; or a belief not based on proof;