2016 Under-20 Rugby World Championships - Manchester UK

[Seymour Butz]

But we now have a group of five with the championship decided by a final, so does that criteria hold?


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Certainly it's not a round robin. Should be the Super Rugby rules, as that's the comp they are playing in: "Super Rugby Under 20s"

Stupid as it is, rules are rules, and if these are the set of rules the comp organises have agreed to (and not the rules for the Super Rugby comp they are actually playing in) then good luck to the Rebels.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Whatever tie break is used, someone is going to be unhappy, because there will be an alternate formula/criteria that could be used to prove that the mob they support should progress.

Think about how "unfair" the pool groupings have been for Aust U20's at previous championships, and consequently how difficult it has been for us to qualify for an "easier" pool allocation for the following year.

 

[FrontRowFan]

Can we at least not have any revisionism or history cleansing, and ensure the inaugural Super Rugby U20 curtain raiser competition 'leader' board (which isn't really a leader board) show the actual result of the competition - that NSW came 2nd?

 

[Silverado]

Can we at least not have any revisionism or history cleansing, and ensure the inaugural Super Rugby U20 curtain raiser competition 'leader' board (which isn't really a leader board) show the actual result of the competition - that NSW came 2nd?

View attachment 7607

If we're not going to worry about leaderboards then why not declare the Reds as worthy winners now, pick an Australian under 20s and start preparing for the World Cup ASAP. We already seem to be behind the six nations in preparation given their comp, and I'm sure the Blacks and Boks aren't dragging their heels


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[kiap]

NSW finished third, lads.

They won the previous comp in the last two years. Be happy with that.

 

[Silverado]

NSW finished third, lads.

They won the previous comp in the last two years. Be happy with that.

They finished second but didn't make the final because they lost to the third placed team. I'm happy with that if you are


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[kiap]

They finished second but didn't make the final because they lost to the third placed team.

Yeah.

And the Wallabies won the World Cup, except for losing to the first placed team due a forward pass not being called ... They <ahem> won everywhere except for the engraving on the trophy.

Pffffft. The best thing about the Aussies in the aftermath to that game was the coach and captain congratulating the opposition on a worthy win. That result pales in comparison to an u20s comp, though, of course.

You don't understand. They coulda finished second. They coulda been contenders. They coulda been somebodies, instead of just third.​

 

[Silverado]

Yeah.

And the Wallabies won the World Cup, except for losing to the first placed team due a forward pass not being called ... They <ahem> won everywhere except for the engraving on the trophy.

Pffffft. The best thing about the Aussies in the aftermath to that game was the coach and captain congratulating the opposition on a worthy win. But that result pales in comparison to the u20s comp, of course.

You don't understand. They coulda finished second. They coulda been contenders. They coulda been somebodies, instead of just third.​

I was very complimentary to the Rebels when they beat us, they deserved that win. Go back and read my posts..good luck next week


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[Highlander35]

Are people seriously arguing that in a single round robin, Points difference is a better separator than Head to head record?

Admittedly I've not played in too many of either, but the majority of tournaments with a single robin I played in as a junior did it that way, as does the bloody RWC.

 

[Silverado]

Are people seriously arguing that in a single round robin, Points difference is a better separator than Head to head record?

Admittedly I've not played in too many of either, but the majority of tournaments with a single robin I played in as a junior did it that way, as does the bloody RWC.

The argument is that there's a final. In a round robin, Reds are winners hands down. Give them the trophy. If there's a final, then first plays second on the table to decide


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[Forcefield]

I don't think you get it Silverado. NSW arent second. They have the same number of competition points. Head to head is more important than points difference. End of story.

 

[Highlander35]

Alright, so from what I've gathered, the expectation of many, before the final round, that where teams finished on equal competition points, the match points difference would be used to separate the sides. However on inspection of rules, the expectation is now that where teams finish on equal competition points, the head to head result of teams would be used to separate the sides.

Which means that effectively, points difference has completely been ignored, as it should be in a single round robin, NSW and VIC have been considered equal 2nd on the competition table, and in order to facilitate a 1 v 2 final, as per the intent of the competition, the game during the season has acted as a retrospective Qualifier for the final, and the Rebels U20s go through courtesy of the win over Gen Blue.

Obviously this is benefitting my own team, but I can't help but feel this would be the correct way to go about the competition logistically and ethically regardless.

 

[Silverado]

I don't think you get it Silverado. NSW arent second. They have the same number of competition points. Head to head is more important than points difference. End of story.

True, it was all confusing because head to head isn't usually the way. Well done to your boys today, they put up great fight


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[Silverado]

Alright, so from what I've gathered, the expectation of many, before the final round, that where teams finished on equal competition points, the match points difference would be used to separate the sides. However on inspection of rules, the expectation is now that where teams finish on equal competition points, the head to head result of teams would be used to separate the sides.

Which means that effectively, points difference has completely been ignored, as it should be in a single round robin, NSW and VIC have been considered equal 2nd on the competition table, and in order to facilitate a 1 v 2 final, as per the intent of the competition, the game during the season has acted as a retrospective Qualifier for the final, and the Rebels U20s go through courtesy of the win over Gen Blue.

Obviously this is benefitting my own team, but I can't help but feel this would be the correct way to go about the competition logistically and ethically regardless.

Fair enough, good luck next week


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[Seymour Butz]

https://www.westernforce.com.au/article/western-force-under-20s-fall-gen-blue-20s

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Has anyone found a match report from the Ponies v Rebels? Remarkable result.

Did the Rebels Management read and understand the competition rules, and rest players while running out a development squad knowing that both games this round were dead rubbers insofar as the Final was concerned?

 

[swingpass]

There is a report on rhe Rebels eebsite and facebook page. Seemed like their best side from what i can see

 

[Highlander35]

Didn't seem too far away from the best side, certainly Sione was playing, as were Fox, and Fowler, and Hosea, with Leota and Uelese presumably still injured. Only one that seemed a little out of place was Ah Mu Timualeaifano (spelling) on the bench.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

2016 Oceania Rugby U20s Championship, Bond University, Gold Coast:
Australia v New Zealand, Tuesday 3 May, 6.30pm AEST
Australia v New Zealand, Saturday 7 May, 6.30pm AEST

They would probably want the Australian squad named shortly after the 2016 Curtain Raiser Cup Final. It would only leave one month to prepare the team for their 1st game against NZ on 3 May.

I'd imagine that they would like to have a week long camp with a match against a Barbarian Team to be followed by another week in camp before the NZ game.

 

[Seymour Butz]

I don't think you get it Silverado. NSW arent second. They have the same number of competition points. Head to head is more important than points difference. End of story.

ForceField - don't be a dick. Nobody likes arrogance. Yes, The Rebels* will be in the final v QLD. Everybody gets that. And The Rebels* deserved to win over NSW - I've said that several times previously.

But you need to acknowledge that when the official Leader Table set up for this comp is completed, NSW will indeed be in second place, based on the standard rules / criteria for most competitions (in NSW at least) and based on the criteria in the Leadership Table - which is competition points and then for and against differential. Leader table is here (still not updated with this weekend's results: http://www2.rugbylink.com.au/common...px?gradeid=22331_1&seasonid=97&entityid=30894.

Due to this comp following under 20s rules - and not standard rules for Super Rugby (which is the comp they are currently playing in) - the head to head factor actually overrules points difference when two teams are tied / equal second place, based on competition points.

End of story...!

* edited