ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[Animal]

Well done to the teams that made the finals. It was great to see so many kids running around during the cricket season .
WA's hanging around in Brisbane for the northern conference final, which they must be raging favourites to take out. Might be one or two rugby scholarships for a couple of these boys..
Single state teams have taken out pools A, B and D. With pool C the only one which didn't have this occurrence as there was none. So in version 3 next year is it 2 teams for these states or is it the reduction of the Sydney/ Brisbane teams?.

I agree that Brisbane and Sydney should considered reduce the number of teams they field.
Not sure about VIC or ACT but WA certainly does not have the capacity to field more than one team per age group.
There simply aren't enough players to compete at this level. The Schoolboy rugby comp is limited and most also play club rugby.
Realistically there are at most 300 age group eligible players in the greater Perth metro club rugby competition - 5 teams in Gold (1st) div, 8 teams in Swan div (2nd) plus add a handful of boys competing in older age groups. There are only 2 clubs that can field more than one team in this age group. Plus add some boys who travelled from Kalgoorlie (600km), Busselton and one boy even relocated from Port Hedland to participate trails and training squad.
Other issues:Distance to training: the majority of boys have to travel 25-50km just to get to centralised training sessions. Facilities: the facilities can also only handle the current squads.Touring: the weeklong tour is difficult as is with 2 squads of 25 players. Plus getting 100 boys fit enough to play 5 games in 7 days would be a mission impossible.

If Sydney and Brisbane are going to reduce the number of teams they field then consideration should also be given to the scheduling of the current competition. Playing 5 games over a 5 week period is totally different from playing 5 games in 7 days then the conference finals 2 days later.

 

[Oldschool]

Animal,
Understand what you are saying, however the Brisbane club competition for the U15's as an example, Div1 = 5 teams, Div2 = approx 7, same with div 3.
Brisbane has 5 teams in the JGC, 3 brisbane, Ipswich and Logan. Only a couple of players would be playing in Div 3 or lower. The Brisbane U17's are almost non existant.
I think if it is truely a development program, then judging by the last two years from what I've seen of ACT, Vic and your WA boys they could field further teams how that is funded and logistics is, I agree, a nightmare, but it needs to be looked at.
Currently the first half is development and the second part of the season competition, Maybe they could have the extra team during that Development phase and a reduction in teams for the competition phase.

 

[Oldschool]

Do the Sydney and Brisbane teams exclude all players from GPS schools and other rugby playing schools? If yes then you have a perfectly valid point.

If they are included and your point of argument is purely that the U17 JGC single state teams are only as good as a "depleted Sydney School of no great rugby repute" then it is flawed by design.

The 2014 JGC winners beat the conference winners that beat Sydney based representative teams. So your argument is basically that a “depleted Sydney School of no great rugby repute" would have done just as good if not better job than the selected Sydney representative teams - find that one difficult to believe.

Surely the Sydney and Brisbane representative rugby teams should surely be better than a "depleted Sydney School of no great rugby repute" ?

Well the unfortunate truth for the U17's especially, Any QLD GPS 1st XV would beat the JGC sides I've seen and probably down to the 3rds for the major rugby schools. That's no reflection on the boys just the reality of how strong the GPS competition is. The same would apply for the JGC v GPS 15A teams.

 

[vegascane]

Well the unfortunate truth for the U17's especially, Any QLD GPS 1st XV would beat the JGC sides I've seen and probably down to the 3rds for the major rugby schools. That's no reflection on the boys just the reality of how strong the GPS competition is. The same would apply for the JGC v GPS 15A teams.

Excuse my interruption to this thread. I am new to this but I have noticed that at College age level there are two different rugby competitions for the same age groups. This always puzzled me as to why this is and why the ARU has allowed it to happen. The NRL and ARL seem to only have either club or school from my understanding.

Why does the ARU and its member unions have a dual competition where some kids play in school competition and the others in a club? Surely resources could be better spent having only one competition in all cities where kids could compete every week against each other...Is this not common sense?

 

[Animal]

Well the unfortunate truth for the U17's especially, Any QLD GPS 1st XV would beat the JGC sides I've seen and probably down to the 3rds for the major rugby schools. That's no reflection on the boys just the reality of how strong the GPS competition is. The same would apply for the JGC v GPS 15A teams.

Did you manage to see any of the WA U15 games? You said in earlier posting that the Bris Pink U15 is virtually the Nudgee back line with a balanced forward pack. Will these boys not the playing 15A for their schools?

 

[Thomo77]

Excuse my interruption to this thread. I am new to this but I have noticed that at College age level there are two different rugby competitions for the same age groups. This always puzzled me as to why this is and why the ARU has allowed it to happen. The NRL and ARL seem to only have either club or school from my understanding.

Why does the ARU and its member unions have a dual competition where some kids play in school competition and the others in a club? Surely resources could be better spent having only one competition in all cities where kids could compete every week against each other.Is this not common sense?

Can't speak for the AFL, but League have a very healthy schools comp that happily co exists with club footy and gets televised. Used to be Commonwealth Bank Cup - until there was a brawl if I recall - now think it's sponsored by GIO. Kids involved play for school and club - fixtures are through the week in school time and kids still play club footy on the weekend generally and participate in the NRL feeder comps.

 

[vegascane]

Can't speak for the AFL, but League have a very healthy schools comp that happily co exists with club footy and gets televised. Used to be Commonwealth Bank Cup - until there was a brawl if I recall - now think it's sponsored by GIO. Kids involved play for school and club - fixtures are through the week in school time and kids still play club footy on the weekend generally and participate in the NRL feeder comps.

Great for league. They have been very innovative in their approach to recruit, retain and develop from the ground up. From what I can see kids either play in the school competition or in the club competition and can't play both as they are both on Saturdays.

So why not create a single competition for all kids to play in?

After all they all end up playing at a representative level for their region or State for the JGC, why wait until then for them to play each other and develop when they could be doing it every week against each other?

 

[sidelined]

Great for league. They have been very innovative in their approach to recruit, retain and develop from the ground up. From what I can see kids either play in the school competition or in the club competition and can't play both as they are both on Saturdays.

So why not create a single competition for all kids to play in?

After all they all end up playing at a representative level for their region or State for the JGC, why wait until then for them to play each other and develop when they could be doing it every week against each other?

Schools and clubs play together in the ACTJRU competition.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Surely the Sydney and Brisbane representative rugby teams should surely be better than a "depleted Sydney School of no great rugby repute" ?

I can only speak of my experience in Sydney.
It depends on the school as to whether they are allowed to play JGC or not and as to whether the boy is 1st or 2nd XV material or 16A's material in U17s.
As to your proposition I have quoted: I would not be so sure.
In my view some Sydney U 16 rep teams would be likely to beat the U17 JGC teams.
A great many if not most of the best U16 rep players from 2014 did not participate in JGC in Sydney.

 

[Delphy]

The depends on the purpose for which the Sydney and Brisbane teams are said to exist: development or elite.
There has only been one, to my knowledge, direct comparison between the JGC teams from single team states and Schools teams and that occurred about a year ago when WA U17 played a Sydney school of no great rugby repute and somewhat depleted and were down 14-0 at half time but went on to win 16-14.

I think we need to be careful about trying to draw conclusions about the standard of JGC from this 1 match.

The Sydney Grammar game was very much a last minute throw together which meant probably half the WA team were not available. With a large number of ring-ins who had not played or trained with the squad and no real preparation for the game, most of the boys saw it as a bit of training run rather than a full on match situation.

I think a better feel for where JGC standards fall can be gained from following the progress of the WA boys from U16 in 2013, through JGC 17’s in early 2014 and finally Schoolboys in mid 2014. A large number of the same boys were involved at each level.

U16 – WA finished 5th
JGC 17 -WA finished 1st
Schoolboys – WA finished last.

The schoolboys result clearly shows the difference between an U17 regional competition and an U18 national competition. (I would add a slight caveat/bias in that I think that WA were better at Schoolboys than the results indicate, with a stomach virus decimating the team in the later games.)

My own gut feeling (based on last year's competition) is that there is roughly an even step down between the various levels. The levels, as I see them, are:

• NSW & Qld teams at National Championships

• WA, Victoria and ACT JGC teams/State Teams

• Brisbane and Sydney JGC teams

• Regional JGC teams

Personally I think that WA could field another team in JGC but would think that we are probably the most expensive centre to fund. I doubt that the ARU's resources would stretch another 50 odd touring boys and officials and that is without even looking at Victoria and ACT.

I wouldn't be in a hurry to cut the number of Sydney or Brisbane teams for 3 reasons:

1. Most importantly - this is a development program, broadening the base from which we identify and develop talent. Any move to a narrower focus significantly undermines this desperately needed initiative.
2. We have a large number of the 2014 Brisbane and Sydney U15 JGC boys eligible for U17's next year. Lets see how the continuation of their development impacts on the standard of the competition.
3. Qld & NSW rugby establishments like to think they own Australian rugby and will fight tooth and nail to put the upstarts from ACT, Victoria and WA back in their place. This should see a greater focus and energy in the heartland programs which in turn should drive the standard of competition higher.

(Apologies for the essay and for the gratuitous dig at QLD and NSW rugby .)

 

[Oldschool]

Did you manage to see any of the WA U15 games? You said in earlier posting that the Bris Pink U15 is virtually the Nudgee back line with a balanced forward pack. Will these boys not the playing 15A for their schools?

Caught the end of the game. Hence the reason about my "scholarship " quote.
I'm in no way disparaging WA's efforts, they are top class, but the school system rules when it comes to the elite age group players. (15 to 18 years).
As for pink, 4 of backs on the weekend were in the 14A's I believe. They should make the 15a's but it depends on who has turned up at Nudgee this year....but that's something for the GPS/scholarship thread.

 

[vegascane]

Caught the end of the game. Hence the reason about my "scholarship " quote.
I'm in no way disparaging WA's efforts, they are top class, but the school system rules when it comes to the elite age group players. (15 to 18 years).
As for pink, 4 of backs on the weekend were in the 14A's I believe. They should make the 15a's but it depends on who has turned up at Nudgee this year..but that's something for the GPS/scholarship thread.

No disrepect intended but its the separation of the school and club system that is killing the game at the age group level of Australian rugby and this flows on to senior levels. The JGC is a great competition that brings both of these together and does not serve the needs of one group or the other but broadens the player base for Australian Rugby enabling opportunity, building experience and greater skills taught at a higher level of rugby.

It should be one of the major building blocks for Australian rugby and could be one of the key drivers to take Australia back to being No. 1 in the world again in the future. Having two competitions doesn't make any sense and as long as it continues Australian Rugby at age group level will continue to be second to countries like NZ and this flows on to higher levels.

Certainly the demographics have changed from 20 years ago and continue to change, so should our competitions, coaching and development. The JGC is part of that change and we should embrace it but we also need to look at reviewing our school and club competitions at a local level.

From what I read here and from talking to other in rugby circles there are too many patch protecting factions. Take a step back everyone and focus on Australian rugby and not your own little State or region. Focus on making Australian Rugby great again, streamline and integrate all age group rugby at local levels.

Put Australian Rugby first!

 

[Oldschool]

^^^^^ None taken, The JGC is an important part to the Aussie rugby scene. It's a great concept and helps cast the net wider to up and coming athletes and rugby players.

 

[Azzuri]

Emails for the lads selected for the NSW JGC squad were sent out late this afternoon.

 

[Oldschool]

No disrepect intended but its the separation of the school and club system that is killing the game at the age group level of Australian rugby and this flows on to senior levels.......Having two competitions doesn't make any sense and as long as it continues Australian Rugby at age group level will continue to be second to countries like NZ and this flows on to higher levels.

Certainly the demographics have changed from 20 years ago and continue to change, so should our competitions, coaching and development. The JGC is part of that change and we should embrace it but we also need to look at reviewing our school and club competitions at a local level.


Put Australian Rugby first!

The Aussie school boys have had the wood on their Kiwi counterparts for a while, except for last year. So I don't think that two systems is the main issue, as it is very similar to NZ, except that in NZ more schools play rugby instead of league AFL etc. the main issue we have is the transition from the age group to elite senior footy, hence the reason for the NRC to help try and bridge that gap. Which I hope is successful. Aussie needs the junior club system to be strong as there aren't the number of schools playing the sport as compared to their main rivals in SA, England or NZ. The introduction of the JGC gives kids an additional pathway for those boys that are not necessarily attending a school that is playing rugby, to play the game at a higher level and learn what potential they have in the sport.
But as in NZ, SA, England the school system is here to stay.

 

[vegascane]

The Aussie school boys have had the wood on their Kiwi counterparts for a while, except for last year. So I don't think that two systems is the main issue, as it is very similar to NZ, except that in NZ more schools play rugby instead of league AFL etc. the main issue we have is the transition from the age group to elite senior footy, hence the reason for the NRC to help try and bridge that gap. Which I hope is successful. Aussie needs the junior club system to be strong as there aren't the number of schools playing the sport as compared to their main rivals in SA, England or NZ. The introduction of the JGC gives kids an additional pathway for those boys that are not necessarily attending a school that is playing rugby, to play the game at a higher level and learn what potential they have in the sport.
But as in NZ, SA, England the school system is here to stay.

Not too sure where you're getting your info from that the Aussie School Boys have had the wood over the Kiwi School Boys cause from my count over the last 20 years since Rugby has gone professional the total is NZ School Boys 14 wins Australia School Boys 5 and 4 of those have only come since 2008. Before that that last win by the School Boys over their Kiwi counterparts was 1997. That's 11 years of losing. The last 2 years NZ has won. Four wins in 18 years against the Kiwi's is nothing to crow about. saying we have the wood over them is a slight hyperbolie...

You might want to check the Australian School Boys website here to clarify. http://www.schoolsrugby.com.au/results/test-matches/

There are distinct differences between Junior rugby in NZ and Australia. NZ's systems are fully integrated from under 5s through to the All Blacks. At college age, all kids play for their school and there are no club teams. Club teams finish at U13 and then carry on again from U19 level when kids finish playing for there school. There is no competition between school and club for players. Players represent their province if selected at representative levels. There are no dual competitions systems that work against each other. They all work in alignment together. Here, at College they work independently of each other and not together. Dividing talented players, coaching and resources.

Why is that? Unusual.

In a country, states and regions where we are constantly competing against sports such as Rugby League, AFL and Football for players why would you have such dual competitions going against each other at such a critical age?

Can somebody explain? Seems senseless.

 

[Animal]

I think we need to be careful about trying to draw conclusions about the standard of JGC from this 1 match....

I think a better feel for where JGC standards fall can be gained from following the progress of the WA boys from U16 in 2013, through JGC 17’s in early 2014 and finally Schoolboys in mid 2014. A large number of the same boys were involved at each level.

U16 – WA finished 5th
JGC 17 -WA finished 1st
Schoolboys – WA finished last.

The schoolboys result clearly shows the difference between an U17 regional competition and an U18 national competition. (I would add a slight caveat/bias in that I think that WA were better at Schoolboys than the results indicate, with a stomach virus decimating the team in the later games.)
.......

Agree with most of your comment but I could never quite understand why the U18 Championships is limited to Schoolsboys and is not a U18's Championship in general.

An U18 is an U18 and a number of year 12 students are still 17 when they graduate and cannot participate the following year. How silly is that for Australian rugby?

And then its still punted as a National Championship and the pinnacle of junior rugby when they are specifically excluding a number of players.

Am I missing something obvious ?

 

[Oldschool]

@ vegascane, Big fish are easy to land gotcha on the school boys
In all seriousness though Aussie will always have the two systems through the juniors there's not enough schools playing the game

 

[CatchnPass]

Well the unfortunate truth for the U17's especially, Any QLD GPS 1st XV would beat the JGC sides I've seen and probably down to the 3rds for the major rugby schools. That's no reflection on the boys just the reality of how strong the GPS competition is. The same would apply for the JGC v GPS 15A teams.

Not so re NSW 15s OldSchool. The strongest GPS 15As side would have maybe 6 -8 current NSWJRU State Champs players from 2014 u14s. Several of the JGC U15 teams would have 10-15+. I've seen each of the NSW GPS schools in this age group play and think that eg the NH u15s, would beat each by 20-50 points. It is different at u17 level because so many of the best players are no longer allowed to play outside school.

 

[Delphy]

Agree with most of your comment but I could never quite understand why the U18 Championships is limited to Schoolsboys and is not a U18's Championship in general.

An U18 is an U18 and a number of year 12 students are still 17 when they graduate and cannot participate the following year. How silly is that for Australian rugby?

And then its still punted as a National Championship and the pinnacle of junior rugby when they are specifically excluding a number of players.

Am I missing something obvious ?

I agree entirely, but then I would as the father of an ineligible 17 year old Uni student.