ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[Thomo77]

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the development opportunity that this program provides the coaches and support personnel. I'm sure they get as much out of having a group of kids that are engaged and keen to work with as the kids do from being coached by people that have put their hand up to coach.

From what I've seen of the under 15's age group in Sydney, there is plenty of talent - some participated in the JGC, some are playing Harold Matts, some play for their school and many of these talented kids have holes in their basic skills that would have been better addressed in younger years than trying to be taught at this age group.

That's not the kids fault - it's an indictment on the coach education process and the lack of structure, resources and, for want of a better term, the lack of a consistent 'style' of play for Australian rugby. The All Blacks have played a consistent style of rugby for many years now and my understanding is that the building blocks of this game style are filtered down to the junior levels through very good resources and continual coaching development.

We don't seem to have had the consistency of style for many years with teams built around individuals, rather than individuals selected to fit into a system of play.

I hardly think the schools system can be blamed for this.

In terms of the comments about people discouraging kids from participating in the program - I'd suggest that this probably gets back to some pretty average organisation in the back office, a lack of resourcing for the guys on the ground trying to make it happen and sour grapes over selections. The first two are fixable and as the program matures would be expected to improve, the last - well that's an issue in every competitive sport in every country. Everyone thinks their 'Johnny' deserves a spot and when they don't make it, they are dark on the program.

 

[Happy to Chat]

IMO the GPS Schools (not sure of the others) have a very structured approach to coaching as opposed to the run-of-the-mill volunteer Dad coaching at the local club. I've had bad experiences where the coach would be swearing at the 12-13 year old kids. I am fortunate enough to have my son in a GPS school playing GPS rugby and not sure he would be where he is today through the club pathway. I do understand that not everyone can do that, thus I would say the ARU should be ploughing more money into grassroots rugby at club level and support club coaching.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Sorry about your traditional thinking but it's exactly opinions and justifications like that that keep Australian Rugby at age group level where it is today. Always second, sometime third and fourth behind NZ, England & Australia.

Reactive and not innovative, always following and never leading.

Disappointing justification, scheduling issues.really, we are putting school scheduling issues before rugby development at age group level? Try telling that to parents that more than one child and work fulltime.

If there is a will then there is a way. Unfortunately here in Australia, no one has the courage to change the status quo and as long as that continues the Bledisloe Cup, Rugby Championship, Sevens World Series, U20 World Championship, Secondary Schools Trans Tasman trophies will all reside in countries other than Australia.

Playing rugby at school is important but it shouldn't hold the rest of age group development as a hostage. Streamline the competition at a local level. Make school and clubs play in one competition.

Isn't anyone sick of losing at the international level and coming second to NZ all the time?

Well since you know everything you get over here and change it - those of us who've tried (without preaching) will be waiting for you in the bar.

 

[sarcophilus]

In a country, states and regions where we are constantly competing against sports such as Rugby League, AFL and Football for players why would you have such dual competitions going against each other at such a critical age?
Vegascane #1278

It would seem a population of around 4.5 million with a narrow genetic pool living in isolation can all become a little fascinated by one thing, stand in a tight circle and wonder why the rest of the world doesn't do it like them, That could be Melbourne or New Zealand

It is exactly the diversity and competition you have described that makes the two streams necessary in this country. Sound grabs, simple fixes are great for rallying troops ready for revolution, but without a road map it all gets quickly lost.

in Sydney there a plenty of Government or Catholic schools that have much less than a team of players per age group playing Rugby. Without club opportunities the base of the pyramid would be even smaller.

Unfortunately the Public School brainstrust at the ARU think a Toryesque "Poll Tax" on the clubs will fix things, where as I would think driving the price up only decreases demand (especially if there is more economical options).

The two wing system is good and from my point of view necessary, it is if one of the wings is failing everything spirals to the ground. The ARU needs to be repairing that wing not plucking more feathers

 

[Delphy]

Final Score in the U15's Northern Conference Semi Final

WA 18 - Brisbane Pink 14

Edit: RugbyWA Juniors page has Bris Pink scoring 2 tries but only 1 converted so perhaps 18 - 12. Either way a win to WA

 

[Animal]

Final Score U15 Northern Conference

WA 18
Brisbane Pink 14

Wasn't at game but updates received was that WA dominated 1st half (18-0) with very little clean ball and hardly any space for BP to run.

WA was reduced to 14 men with 7 mins to go, BP managed to score 2 converted goal in this period.

Good finals by the sounds of it.

 

[Animal]

Final Score U17 Northern Conference
WA 33
Brisbane Pink 0

WA had a brilliant first half and were 30-0 ahead at break. BP tightened their game second half and gave very little away.

 

[Oldschool]

Any news on Qld team yet?

QLD teams
http://www.redsrugby.com.au/News/Ne...-15-and-Under-17-teams-named-to-face-NSW.aspx

 

[vegascane]

In a country, states and regions where we are constantly competing against sports such as Rugby League, AFL and Football for players why would you have such dual competitions going against each other at such a critical age?
Vegascane #1278

It would seem a population of around 4.5 million with a narrow genetic pool living in isolation can all become a little fascinated by one thing, stand in a tight circle and wonder why the rest of the world doesn't do it like them, That could be Melbourne or New Zealand

It is exactly the diversity and competition you have described that makes the two streams necessary in this country. Sound grabs, simple fixes are great for rallying troops ready for revolution, but without a road map it all gets quickly lost.

in Sydney there a plenty of Government or Catholic schools that have much less than a team of players per age group playing Rugby. Without club opportunities the base of the pyramid would be even smaller.

Unfortunately the Public School brainstrust at the ARU think a Toryesque "Poll Tax" on the clubs will fix things, where as I would think driving the price up only decreases demand (especially if there is more economical options).

The two wing system is good and from my point of view necessary, it is if one of the wings is failing everything spirals to the ground. The ARU needs to be repairing that wing not plucking more feathers

Sacrophilus I would agree with your argument if it lead Australia to success or even moderate success against international competition on the world stage or even small wins consistently against Tier 1 nations at Schoolboy level but your argument falls flat on its face there as its quite obvious that the pinnacle of schoolboy rugby continues to fail against its competition internationally.

Certainly sounds like your are in support of the status quo that has developed the losing tradition the Australian schools system has become and will continue to advocate for an elitist system of a select few that separates itself from the majority of rugby players at an age group level.

Let me be clear, my argument is not for either school or club but for one competition for age groups at a local level. My reasons for this have been clearly stated and articulated and are results based with evidence going back 20 years.

Your argument that because of diversity and competition that we need two system is ridiculous in a day in age where Australian borders are open and as a country we openly court migrants from all countries to come here, including rugby players. It is so backward and based in the 19th century when class structures were prevalent in society and people treated those with lesser with disdain and disrespect as lesser and not equal like the egalitarian society we are today.

Australian is now a multicultural multiracial multiethnic society where all people are welcome and are treated equally. You want a two system because of this? Come on? Really? There are countries in this world who have fought against this type of elitist ideology. Your reasoning is exactly why we need one competition for both schools and clubs at age group level and clearly bolsters my argument for change.

Australian rugby is now in 2015 not 1915...the world and rugby has moved on so has accepted ideology. Would be good if thinking in some rugby circles in Australia could catch up...

 

[vegascane]

Well since you know everything you get over here and change it - those of us who've tried (without preaching) will be waiting for you in the bar.

Gotta love the bar...and I am here. Change will take time but it will get there, the demographics of our game are such that the face of the game in Australia is beginning to change as we speak. As these demographics change then so too should the structures and resource allocation begin to change to reflect the new rugby landscape.

 

[vegascane]

And it get's worse, not better...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-17/wallabies-fall-to-lowest-ever-world-ranking-of-sixth/6324482

 

[Oldschool]

@vegascane, Valid points mate.But you might want to take your rant to a more appropriate thread rather than highjack this one.

 

[vegascane]

@vegascane, Valid points mate.But you might want to take your rant to a more appropriate thread rather than highjack this one.

Lol...thanks Old School, will search for the right one but Junior Gold Cup is age group level at its finest and has school and club kids playing in it with supporters, coaches and administrators in and around it.

There were already people talking about the issues I have discussed on here. I'm just doing the same. I'm not hijacking or ranting about anything. Just stating facts and opinions using evidence to support my argument on a forum for Australian rugby in a thread for National Junior Championships - JGC. This is the right place for this debate.

I may not like some people's opinions on this forum and they may not like mine but we should be respectful of each others opinions and their right to express it regardless.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

In State schools, and many small private schools, the sport/physical education component of the curriculum is timetabled to occur mid-week, which frees up the weekend for the kids. Unlike New Zealand, there is no tradition of State Schools and small private schools participating in Saturday sporting competitions. Most of the mid week sport/physical education periods in these schools are not formal inter-school sporting games, but are more likely to be intra-school informal minor games or exercise related activities.

In a small number of certain (often referred to as Elite) private schools in NSW and Qld, they allocate sport for Saturday and in doing so free up timetable space mid week for other lessons. Those schools also run aggressive summer and winter sports seasons with not much time for "non-traditional" 1st XV rugby matches.

Looking between the lines of the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_First_XV_Championship_(New_Zealand) on NZ school rugby, their approach is that they play their regular district inter-school games on weekends, and the Big Rugby Schools seem to somehow schedule the "Traditionals" (probably the equivalent to the AAGPS, Qld GPS, and CAS games) in around their graded local school competitions games.

The Sporting calendar is so entrenched in the AAGPS, CAS, ISA, Qld GPS, and QLD QIC culture and psyche that it is a major point of difference of their "brand" that they are not going to change a fundamental component of their package to suit the development needs of the peak body of one of their sports offerings. While 1st XV performance is a major component in defining the school, their educative philosophy also places value in participating in team sports for the 13H's, 15D's and 7th XV, with the vast majority of the latter of little interest to the ARU Clipboards.

The State Schools and small private schools are never going to move to compulsory Saturday Sport, or even a model where there is only 1 rugby team per year group playing under the school banner on a weekend. Junior Village Clubs have filled this vacuum but are unable to effectively integrate into a combined schools/clubs competition in Sydney and Brisbane by sheer weight of numbers. Schools like Oakhill, St Pats, Waverley and Cranbrook will have about 20 rugby teams each from U13-U18, with Joeys, Kings and Shore having up to double that number.

When ARU are taxing the grass roots to prop up the game, it's patently obvious that very little will be done to grow the game in new areas. Operating on the smell of an oily rag against a rumoured $25m AFL junior development budget (Sydney Metro only) and the rumoured $12m that NRL and NRL Clubs tip into junior loig (Sydney only) the end result should not surprise.

If the State Schools and small private schools are not interested and most Junior Village Clubs struggle to put one team together at U15 and above, and the ARU have no money left, we should be very thankful that AAGPS, CAS, ISA, Qld GPS and AIC run rugby games to keep our game alive.

Junior Gold Cup helps.

 

[sarcophilus]

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...hools-the-clubs-the-unions-and-the-aru.12669/

 

[Chris McCracken]

It's not that there are not enough schools playing here; how the the NZ system works is that ALL high schools participate, private, public and Catholic.
All schools play in a Saturday morning or weekday comp. There is no club from U13, end of story.

The schools are graded into divisions, so for example here you would have your better GPS schools playing in Div 1, against the better CAS, ISA and public schools. Then Div 2 and so on.

It could work here. But we all know why it would never happen here - protected interests as so many people have said.

That is true, but even more so, the fact that most schools DON'T make Rugby a priority in Australia is as big or bigger issue to prevent that.

Personally, I think moving Rugby out of the schools and into the clubs would be a better approach to unification. I have more chance of breeding unicorns, though.

 

[No1Son]

Reading all these comments and am quiet confused whether the JGC and then subsequent selection in the state team is recognised as an acheivement for any of these young boys? Or are they just the best of the rest?
I dont live near, nor can I offord a private school for my son, so does he just hang up his boots now?
Im pretty sure if kids are good enough they get noticed regardless... my public school son was part of the Waratahs Gen blue sqaud this year, and trained beside some of these private school boys. I didnt even realised that Tim Wrapp knew his name, let alone his phone number..
I beleive if your kid has talent, regardless of pathway, he will be found.. And lets face it you need the $$version then the blue collar version of any game.

 

[Happy to Chat]

That is true, but even more so, the fact that most schools DON'T make Rugby a priority in Australia is as big or bigger issue to prevent that.

Personally, I think moving Rugby out of the schools and into the clubs would be a better approach to unification. I have more chance of breeding unicorns, though.

Totally disagree, Schools promote participation. The School my son attends has 24 rugby teams from u11 to opens, all aspiring to wear the school 1st XV jersey someday or make a GPS or Qld School Boy side. This plays a huge part in the Aus Rugby Union feeder mechanism, the problem lies in the after school retention of these players. Where are the lower grade competitions and initiatives? This is where the clubs and communities need to focus.

 

[BraveandGame]

Totally disagree, Schools promote participation. The School my son attends has 24 rugby teams from u11 to opens, all aspiring to wear the school 1st XV jersey someday or make a GPS or Qld School Boy side. This plays a huge part in the Aus Rugby Union feeder mechanism, the problem lies in the after school retention of these players. Where are the lower grade competitions and initiatives? This is where the clubs and communities need to focus.

100% correct - the failure in keeping the 1000's of kids playing rugby during their final year of school in the game post school is keeping Rugby down.

The so called 'elite rugby schools' are the only group doing anything to increase participation in the game. GT had 120+ boys play open rugby last year - the vast majority of whom would not have been near a local club in over 5 years if at all.

 

[Chris McCracken]

Totally disagree, Schools promote participation. The School my son attends has 24 rugby teams from u11 to opens, all aspiring to wear the school 1st XV jersey someday or make a GPS or Qld School Boy side. This plays a huge part in the Aus Rugby Union feeder mechanism, the problem lies in the after school retention of these players. Where are the lower grade competitions and initiatives? This is where the clubs and communities need to focus.

But the school my son attends doesn't have a Rugby team. Only four of the other thirty or so schools within 100km play Rugby as a priority. The rest play League and occasionally scrape together a Union team.

My comment is in the context of the NZ model discussed above where ALL schools - private, public or otherwise - participate. In Australia, it is a minority of schools which do so. Therefore, if we were to have a unified system, the majority of schools would not be on board.