ARU take over the Western Force.

[Quick Hands]

Well, I can take your n=1 guy from Manly or the CEO of RUPA and ex-CEO of the Force (before he was CEO of the Tahs).

I don't say that to be a wanker (I can see it may look that way), just to say that I'm not winging this - It is a well known problem for those involved with the Force that they can't get players over there. You don't sign unheard of Saffas if you don't have to - there are very good reasons why the Force never got above 7th despite the money spent.

I don't doubt that they have trouble signing established stars or even guys who can get a similar deal in Sydney, Brisbane or Canberra. I question whether they can't sign fringe players who want a super contract but can't get one elsewhere.

EDIT: And I suspect that if the Force were coached by an Eddie Jones or a Jake White or some other competent person rather than the prospect of Richard Graham or Michael Foley, then it would lessen the negatives of living in Perth.

 

[TOCC]

EPS and WTS players is an area where the Force will and have struggled to attract Sydney and Brisbane club players..

Already this season the Reds have used 4 WTS/EPS players. Tahs have used EPS players Palu and Robertson.. Are Holloway and Dempsey full contract players?

 

[Gagger]

I don't doubt that they have trouble signing established stars or even guys who can get a similar deal in Sydney, Brisbane or Canberra. I question whether they can't sign fringe players who want a super contract but can't get one elsewhere.

Well then you question the ex CEO because that's exactly what he said.

If you're a young, confident rugby player on the fringe of the Tahs or Reds, do you go to the failing Force on the other side of the continent, or hold out?

Some will go, most won't

 

[Forcefield]

If you can't get Aussie players coming over to the Force, why not have the ARU help the Force to supplement their recruitment of overseas players who could become Wallaby eligible? I am not talking about financial help. I am talking about help with scouting/talent identification.

Help the Force to get more guys like Speight, Masirewa or the likes of Dan Vickerman, Clyde Rathbone. Between that and locally produced players we could fill the gap. Maybe we couldnt 3-10 years ago, but we can now.

 

[Quick Hands]

Well then you question the ex CEO because that's exactly what he said.

If you're a young, confident rugby player on the fringe of the Tahs or Reds, do you go to the failing Force on the other side of the continent, or hold out?

Some will go, most won't

I'm talking about players who can't get a super rugby deal elsewhere.

And I agree that the job of the Force to recruit is made more difficult by their predicament. Unfortunately, their predicament is largely self-inflicted by the appointments of Richard Graham and Michael Foley.

The fact remains that super rugby is the only way to obtain Wallaby selection. Players whose desire is to play for the Wallabies need to find an Australian super franchise.

If we look at the Force current playing roster we see that the majority are fringe players who come from the eastern states - most of whom couldn't get a long time deal at home so took the decision to go to Perth.
https://www.westernforce.com.au/team/players


No doubt some will hold out and not go in the hope of making it at home, but I'd suggest that theres' a very narrow window for guys to get inot super rugby and thus the Wallabies - hold out too long and your chance may never come.

Then there are the others who never get a super deal at all - they are then faced with a choice stay in Sydney or Brisbane playing club rugby or try their luck in Europe. The ones who take the Europe option won't be going on a big contract if they haven't played any super rugby - they might get a job, somewhere to live and maybe expenses. The big deal, if it comes, is on the basis of performance at pro level.

 

[Train Without a Station]

So what we are actually talking about is contracted WTS players, similar to Michael Gunn and Taniela Tupou at the Reds in 2015?

Many of these are players who have grown up supporting a team and wanting to represent a team and are on the fringe of this team, some may even get game time for the team in fact.

Would they automatically sign for another team? Some might not want to leave Sydney, but some may want to still try and crack the Waratahs XV.

But how many players is that? They're players that can't crack a super rugby squad, so how much impact are they going to have other than adding a little depth? And it doesn't resolve any QLD players.

I get the impression there's a bluff here talking about all of these numbers because it suits an argument that Harris and his successor who also has ties to Sydney Uni are pushing, but there actually aren't that many.

I can't help but feel if there was, we'd be reading about all these Shute Shield and NRC Superstars in Sydney year after year, that look up to the next level. Are we? Can anybody name a few?

And again, is it because of the dire state of the Force (Eg results and coaching) and was this 2009, we wouldn't be talking about it? Because if that is the case the whole premise of the argument is false, and it's about players not wanting to go to a poor performing franchise because they think it's not in the best interests of their career, and the problem would still exist I. Western Sydney.

 

[Caputo]

Here are some of the players that headed West. I believe that they have capped 136 in 11 years

Matt Brandon Easts Brisbane 1 Cap
Mick Snowden Eastwood 3 Caps
Brian Sefanaia Manly 1 Cap
Tim Davidson Sydney Uni 5 Caps
Gavin DeBartolo Easts 4 Caps
Jono Jenkins Sydney Uni 6 Caps
Elvis Taione Manly 2 Caps
Ben Seymour Manly 5 Caps
David Harvey - half of the Shute Shield teams 5 Caps
James Hiltebrand Manly 2 Caps
Tevita Metuisela Manly 7 Caps

Brock James 10 Caps

Luke Jones 2 Caps
Mich Inman 19 Caps
Ruan Smith 1 Cap

 

[Gnostic]

Chris Malone actually illustrates my point perfectly. Played for Manly 1996-98 (including Aust 19s and 21s). Moved to Uni in 1999 to 2001. Couldn't crack it for a super contract and then went to Britain.



His Australian representation meant that he wasn't just an ordinary club player, but someone who had represented his country albeit at age group level.



Dan Parks similarly illustrates my point - again, he wasn't able to get a super rugby deal so he moved to England to further his career. His first club was Leeds Tykes, who were in the 2nd Division - he didn't go there on a mega contract, he went there to try his luck.



Tim Donnelly played 2 years for the Waratahs, so didn't go from club rugby to a big time pro deal in Europe.



You may need to do that research to find someone who has played no higher than Sydney or Brisbane club rugby and was signed directly to a big contract in Europe.

No its also about potential not being developed in this country. Not just an immediate signing and immediate results. Malone went on to dominate the Top 14 and Parkes became and international with Scotland.

Away from Rugby WA also struggles to attract east coast workers. How many people stay in WA after the big mining money is done? How many are purely FIFO. My neighbour is FIFO from the mid north coast NSW to the north west shelf. My brother spent 15 years working in the mines and left as soon as he could. To some people the west is a very attractive place and I'm sure it has its appeals, but for a large majority of the east coast population without truly big dollars on offer it has nothing to offer them.

The discussion also needs to have a look at the coaching systems and staff the Force have had since the start. John Mitchell - an abrasive character who had a star studded initial line up that didn't get the results we have seen the Sun Wolves and Jaguares get already. Richard Graham and then Foley. Who would want to go there if you have been struggling to get development on the east coast. Better off going to second division in Europe and getting some development, much like the new graduate refusing the immediate partnership at the two bit firm for the mentorship at the big time firm and actually getting to the top of your potential.

 

[TOCC]

And the A-League and BBL both have a 2nd team in Sydney, not at the expense of a Perth team.

In fact the A-League had a Perth team first and a 2nd Sydney team years later.

If you want to talk about competition, would you opt for a city with 1.8M people and only 2 other winter sporting franchises, 600k people
Per team, or a city with 4.3M but 9 teams from a similar sport, 1 team from the same sport and 2 teams from another sport, so 360k people per team?

Looking at it from purely a population perspective ignores the demand factors which actually drive revenue. Population is indicative of growth potential, but that's not realised revenue or income.

If you want to talk about consumer demand which already exists then you only need to glance at tv ratings to see the massive disparity between the the two markets, Perth drew an audience of 50k and 60k for last years Bledisloe Cup while Sydney drew an audience of 260k and 223k.. It's a recurring themes theme that Sydney draws ratings 4 times greater then Perth.

Based on your logic of dividing consumers/teams, this would mean 125k/team for sydney(which is on par with Brisbane) or 55k/team for Perth.

 

[Caputo]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/31189891/force-forecast-ownership-change/

I believe we are off track as WA Rugby are fighting hard for their team and the right model.

The three options
Takeover by ARU
Privatise
Partnership with ARU

To be resolved is relationship Western Force/Rugby WA ownership.

Plus there is a perceived relationship problem where some clubs seem to be favoured over others.

an example is distribution of Force players to Pindan clubs. Brumbies and Rebels allocate players equally to all clubs while Force want them to play at clubs close to their training base.

However there seems to be a fog of negativity around the Force. But not as bad as the Reds recently.

 

[Gnostic]

I look at this whole argument from this point, with the ARU now funding or guaranteeing three out of five franchises and the Reds apparently again being on the verge, how long can the situation continue before the ARU goes arse up?

If I ran my business like this signing loss making outlets just to have a "footprint" and the other outlets not being able to turn a profit to make the whole situation viable the banks would be quickly closing me down.

 

[TOCC]

Im not advocating that they move the Force, it would cause irreparable damage to Rugby Union in WA. However with the benefit of hindsight and based on the evidence presented today through the finances, on field performance and tv ratings I think that a 2nd Sydney team would have made a better option then Perth.

There's also some rumours of a few key Force players about to sign with European clubs, i don't know how much longer they can stand by Michael Foley as coach.

 

[Quick Hands]

No its also about potential not being developed in this country. Not just an immediate signing and immediate results. Malone went on to dominate the Top 14 and Parkes became and international with Scotland.

But that wasn't what you asserted. Neither went straight from club rugby to a large professional rugby contract on the basis of Sydney club form. The proposition that European rugby clubs will offer six-figure contracts to guys who are good Shute Shield players is a nonsense.

Both went to Europe because they couldn't get a professional rugby contract in Australia.

Geography is a part of the problem for the Force, but we're talking about Perth, not Baghdad or Mogadishu. I suspect the bigger problem is that players don't think that they will be developed in a club coached by either Richard Graham or Michael Foley. Have a look at the number of players who left Brisbane under the Graham regime.

 

[Quick Hands]

I look at this whole argument from this point, with the ARU now funding or guaranteeing three out of five franchises and the Reds apparently again being on the verge, how long can the situation continue before the ARU goes arse up?

If I ran my business like this signing loss making outlets just to have a "footprint" and the other outlets not being able to turn a profit to make the whole situation viable the banks would be quickly closing me down.

The only parts of the game in Australia which make money are the Wallabies and the ARU levy on juniors. The rest of it is a financial basket case.

 

[TOCC]

Geography is a part of the problem for the Force, but we're talking about Perth, not Baghdad or Mogadishu. I suspect the bigger problem is that players don't think that they will be developed in a club coached by either Richard Graham or Michael Foley. Have a look at the number of players who left Brisbane under the Graham regime.

Did the Tahs have the same recruitment/retention problems that the Force are having when Foley was coaching NSW?

 

[Quick Hands]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/31189891/force-forecast-ownership-change/

I believe we are off track as WA Rugby are fighting hard for their team and the right model.

The three options
Takeover by ARU
Privatise
Partnership with ARU

To be resolved is relationship Western Force/Rugby WA ownership.

Plus there is a perceived relationship problem where some clubs seem to be favoured over others.

an example is distribution of Force players to Pindan clubs. Brumbies and Rebels allocate players equally to all clubs while Force want them to play at clubs close to their training base.

However there seems to be a fog of negativity around the Force. But not as bad as the Reds recently.

Ownership may solve some things, but the most important decision for the Force is the appointment of a head coach.

 

[barbarian]

Im not advocating that they move the Force, it would cause irreparable damage to Rugby Union in WA. However with the benefit of hindsight and based on the evidence presented today through the finances, on field performance and tv ratings I think that a 2nd Sydney team would have made a better option then Perth.
.

I think creating the Force in 2007 was the right call. Their sponsorship revenue in the early seasons was incredible, and they turned pretty nice profits in their first few years.

In 2010 the venture had been a success, and the on-field results were surely about to come. They had developed Pocock and JOC (James O'Connor), and had a bunch of other Wallabies like Brown, Hodgson, McCalman, Sharpe, Cummins etc.

But then it has all gone sour. Mainly due to the drop-off in sponsorship revenue and the downturn of the WA economy, as well as a few years of bad coaching, player losses, dud signings etc.
.

 

[Gnostic]

But that wasn't what you asserted. Neither went straight from club rugby to a large professional rugby contract on the basis of Sydney club form. The proposition that European rugby clubs will offer six-figure contracts to guys who are good Shute Shield players is a nonsense.



Both went to Europe because they couldn't get a professional rugby contract in Australia.



Geography is a part of the problem for the Force, but we're talking about Perth, not Baghdad or Mogadishu. I suspect the bigger problem is that players don't think that they will be developed in a club coached by either Richard Graham or Michael Foley. Have a look at the number of players who left Brisbane under the Graham regime.

Go back and read what I posted. I never posted anything about 6 figure salaries. They wouldn't get 6 figures at any of the Super sides at the start up level they were going in at. They got the same in Euro land AND the development to make them 6 figure earners and dominant players.

AND here is the great irony our arguments actually intersect, it was obvious that even though both Parkes and Malone totally dominated the Shute Shield with their kicking games and the Tahs were playing that god awful risk free rugby under Link/Hickey/Foley they didn't see anything to develop in these players and selected Beale, a flakey individual running player with serious defensive issues (at the time), how did that make a cohesive part of the risk free kicking game plan?

As for taking the argument to the ridiculous, no Perth isn't Mogadishu or Baghdad (I don't think there are many pro sides in either city), but honestly when given the choice of running my modest businesses on the east coast or the big salary in Perth there was no competition for me, not interested in the slightest, and the blokes I know that do the FIFO thing feel the same way, they'd rather spend three/four days travelling in their own time than live there. Why would rugby people be different unless they thought they'd get career changing mentoring and coaching, which obviously they don't.

 

[Gnostic]

The only parts of the game in Australia which make money are the Wallabies and the ARU levy on juniors. The rest of it is a financial basket case.

Its a poorly structured Ponzi. How long will it last or will we see a sensible re-structure that gets rid of "investments" that are unlikely to ever see a return, directly or indirectly.

 

[kiap]

Parkes became and international with Scotland.

That ain't saying much.

Away from Rugby WA also struggles to attract east coast workers. How many people stay in WA after the big mining money is done?

Without wanting to be rude, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Sure, workers will bugger off when job vacancies go down, same as anywhere.

But WA's population has DOUBLED in 40 years. Mining booms don't last that long; a decade is good going. A big chunk of that increase is interstate migration.

New South Wales, by contrast, has increased 45% in the last four decades.