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Australian Schoolboys & National Championship 2010

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I like to watch

David Codey (61)
I agree with all these posts about not rushing Schoolboys into S15 the next year.Beale is a perfect case study, he was really thrown to the wolves in his first year/s
However, in Mungo world it is regular practise to push to better schoolboys into the top side the following year.
IMO the NRL is comparive to S15 in terms of physical contact, speed & intensity.The pay is about the same.
Many/most go on to play several seasons, and appear to suffer no harm.
Why the difference?
 

Brumbies Guy

John Solomon (38)
In the case of Michael Hooper, Friend had only he and Colby Fainga'a, both academy players at the beginning of the 2010 S14, in his stable to cover George Smith because Salvi had gone. I thought his not having a senior 7 as a backup for Smith, and if he didn't, not using the older Fainga'a (who, unlike Hooper, had a full year of conditioning), were both reprehensible.

Lee as mentioned a few times on these posts, though you may not have included into your notes:
- Fainga'a did not have the additional year of conditioning implied. He 1, like Hooper, went under the knife (in 2009) and 2, was sidelined (seperate to 1) the entire 2010 preseason, sporting a full legged boot and crutches
- They are the same age, days/months difference, I can't remember that one off the top of my head
- Fainga'a is the correct spelling
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Lee as mentioned a few times on these posts, though you may not have included into your notes:
- Fainga'a did not have the additional year of conditioning implied. He 1, like Hooper, went under the knife (in 2009) and 2, was sidelined (seperate to 1) the entire 2010 preseason, sporting a full legged boot and crutches

- Fainga'a is the correct spelling

Thanks for that. I can't remember reading your remarks about Colby having an operation then, and if I did, I forgot. I do that a lot.

As for the spelling of the name it is customary for the double o's and double a's to be separated by an apostrophe in Tongan and Samoan names and the point is that each o or a should be pronounced separately. Thus in Rodney So'oialo each of the o's should be uttered.

In Australia though we tend to overlook such niceties and short track pronunciations as has always been our way. Some commentators leave out pronouncing the final a so it is no wonder that people spell it without the apostrophe.

On the other hand I remember the South African brodcaster listing the Reds names once this year with the apostrophe correctly (IMO) included.

PS Rodney has a cousin who used to play for the Roosters and the double o was dropped from his name entirely, let alone the apostrophe.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no correct way to spell the name.
 
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NorthernSon

Guest
Hmmm, Good to see Roach being given the opportunity to run around with the Brumby Academy as he has indeed had two solid seasons in open schoolboy rugby, but I hope they let him cut his baby teeth first.

I concur with the posts of many though about the failings of blooding young forwards in S15 (Hooper the exception) and think that Roach's size will inevitably go against him as the modern game does suit his mobility but no longer suits the mighty midgets (ie Adam Friar and Hugh Roach) where impact at the break down is required.

The posts relating to the mungo approach of blooding them at 18 is flawed in the case of forwards with talented young Rooster Boyd Cordner (Played NSW PSSA Rugby 2003/04 ) a typical example having been blooded in the NRL at 17 and has had two knee reconstructions in two years. Simply destroyed by the power of the opposition tackles.

This years schoolboys crop of forwards should crawl before they can walk and wrapping them in the academy structure at 18/19 on contracts at the expense of more mature club talent at 20/21 should no longer be tolerated. If we want diamonds not crystals to be the make up of our franchises and wallabies, if you have single digits on your back you must do your time in colts and club land where there is quality opposition.

Schoolboy outside backs are a different proposition and with their "when in doubt run out" approach allowing them to minimise real contact at Academy and even S15 level.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
This years schoolboys crop of forwards should crawl before they can walk and wrapping them in the academy structure at 18/19 on contracts at the expense of more mature club talent at 20/21 should no longer be tolerated. If we want diamonds not crystals to be the make up of our franchises and wallabies, if you have single digits on your back you must do your time in colts and club land where there is quality opposition.

Schoolboy outside backs are a different proposition and with their "when in doubt run out" approach allowing them to minimise real contact at Academy and even S15 level.

Very well said.

I was flabbergasted that Luke Jones got a full Super contract for 2010 as it would have been better for him to be treated the same way as the other 3 star Oz Schools forwards of 2009. Fortunately he came out unscathed and he is playing 2nd Grade for Sydney Uni. Watch this lad in a couple of years time. He can play.

I don't blame the Tahs for engaging Peterson in the pro academy for 2010 and will do so again for 2011, as it is obvious that they have a long term plan for him. I am certain that PAE is being treated the same way by the Reds. Gill has a good programme going also with the Oz Sevens and the Qld academy and I'm sure he will be tracked for other things.

I also don't have too many qualms about elite school leavers playing at wing or at fullback at the pro level - especially if they have had a stint with the Oz 7s by way of apprenticeship. But I wouldn't have any school leaver playing Super rugby in any other back position as there is too much traffic in their channels.



PS I'll ask again: anybody know how much Roach weighs at the minute? Ditto Millar? Ditto Browning - though I know he's only 16 - but just by way of interest. [Definite details - not "I thinks"]
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
I concur with the posts of many though about the failings of blooding young forwards in S15 (Hooper the exception) and think that Roach's size will inevitably go against him as the modern game does suit his mobility but no longer suits the mighty midgets (ie Adam Friar and Hugh Roach) where impact at the break down is required.
Geez I reckon you would bag Santa Claus,Why can't he fill out and be as big as Saia Fainga'a?

The posts relating to the mungo approach of blooding them at 18 is flawed in the case of forwards with talented young Rooster Boyd Cordner (Played NSW PSSA Rugby 2003/04 ) a typical example having been blooded in the NRL at 17 and has had two knee reconstructions in two years. Simply destroyed by the power of the opposition tackles.

Poor example, Cordner has been with the Roosters since jan 09, has only just turned 18 & is yet to make his NRL debut.
The point I tried to make was that there are numerous teenagers playing in the NRL and coping,compared to a only a handful in S14.
The step up in Rugby seems so much steeper.Why is this the case?
No one disputes that their is a risk of injury when promoting youngsters.


Schoolboy outside backs are a different proposition and with their "when in doubt run out" approach allowing them to minimise real contact at Academy and even S15 level.
That is a ridiculous generalisation,would you say that about Hingano or Ingate, the 2 13's for NSW this year?
 

Informer

Ward Prentice (10)
Very well said.

PS I'll ask again: anybody know how much Roach weighs at the minute? Ditto Millar? Ditto Browning - though I know he's only 16 - but just by way of interest. [Definite details - not "I thinks"]

Re Roach the only comment I have heard is from his dad who at the start of the season mentioned that he was less than 90 kilos due to his rowing commitments which strips the weight off. So I would imagine he is around 95 kilos on a good day and given his height he may not be able to pack on much more. He is a tiger and plays above his weight but size could eventually be an issue for him if he is to play in the big league. He is certainly the no. one hooker in the country at schools level and it will be interesting to see how he goes against the Kiwis who will be his first real test this year. Apparently on the UK tour last year he was solid but not outstanding.
 
R

Rothschild

Guest
Very well said.

I also don't have too many qualms about elite school leavers playing at wing or at fullback at the pro level - especially if they have had a stint with the Oz 7s by way of apprenticeship. But I wouldn't have any school leaver playing Super rugby in any other back position as there is too much traffic in their channels.

I was chatting with a father of a current Oz schoolboy back who has signed with a S15 team and he tells it that while it is totally against his ethos for the school kiddies to be recruited/play super rugby before age 20 and he agrees with what Qld have done what do you do?
You are damned if you take it and damned if you don't. At least with his kid he is I think the biggest and strongest back there and certainly - well probably faster than anyone else around his current size and strength gives him a great platform on which to build and he can always run away from trouble (that is a joke by the way).
Now for the good news on that front. I am reliably informed that this years crackdown by the ARU on Academy signings is only the start. Next year if the well oiled plan comes to fruition we should see no individual S15 signings of school leavers. The ARU apparently are planning a draft type system where they will determine what players are recruited, when the players get recruited and where the players go. If the clubs and/or the player want ARU endorsement (read money) they must abide by that decision. They will have a right of refusal however they will lose whatever money the ARU would have paid and must finance their endeavour alone. Now that is a great leap forward and should see the kiddies in that cotton wool for a couple of years in club rugby learning their trade properly and not being unceremoniously fed to the lions as it were.
 
R

rugbyfan

Guest
Hmmm, Good to see Roach being given the opportunity to run around with the Brumby Academy as he has indeed had two solid seasons in open schoolboy rugby, but I hope they let him cut his baby teeth first.

I concur with the posts of many though about the failings of blooding young forwards in S15 (Hooper the exception) and think that Roach's size will inevitably go against him as the modern game does suit his mobility but no longer suits the mighty midgets (ie Adam Friar and Hugh Roach) where impact at the break down is required.

The posts relating to the mungo approach of blooding them at 18 is flawed in the case of forwards with talented young Rooster Boyd Cordner (Played NSW PSSA Rugby 2003/04 ) a typical example having been blooded in the NRL at 17 and has had two knee reconstructions in two years. Simply destroyed by the power of the opposition tackles.

This years schoolboys crop of forwards should crawl before they can walk and wrapping them in the academy structure at 18/19 on contracts at the expense of more mature club talent at 20/21 should no longer be tolerated. If we want diamonds not crystals to be the make up of our franchises and wallabies, if you have single digits on your back you must do your time in colts and club land where there is quality opposition.

Schoolboy outside backs are a different proposition and with their "when in doubt run out" approach allowing them to minimise real contact at Academy and even S15 level.

Benn Robinson? Kevin Mealamu?
 
S

sportsfan

Guest
According to the Newington 1st XV conditioner Roach is 180cms and 96 kgs. According to Brumbies web site Stephen moore is 186 cms and 112kgs and Huia Edmonds is 183 cms and 103 kgs.

Roach is not yet 18 yrs old and has some growing to do. His 2011-2012 stats could be 183+ cms and 105kgs plus without much of and issue.
Not a behmoth but certainly not in the "midget" catagory.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
I was chatting with a father of a current Oz schoolboy back who has signed with a S15 team and he tells it that while it is totally against his ethos for the school kiddies to be recruited/play super rugby before age 20 and he agrees with what Qld have done what do you do?

Now for the good news on that front. I am reliably informed that this years crackdown by the ARU on Academy signings is only the start. Next year if the well oiled plan comes to fruition we should see no individual S15 signings of school leavers.

The ARU apparently are planning a draft type system where they will determine what players are recruited, when the players get recruited and where the players go.

If the clubs and/or the player want ARU endorsement (read money) they must abide by that decision. They will have a right of refusal however they will lose whatever money the ARU would have paid and must finance their endeavour alone.

Yep I know who the lad is - and the father. I wouldn't attach any blame to family at all in the position he plays in. Barring injuries he'll play for the Wallabies one day as sure as God made little green apples.


I also know another father who encouraged his son, not a player in the back 3, to cool his current ambitions in the interests of preparing himself properly. I reckon the lad will end up in the same Wallaby team as the first bloke.


No names; no pack drill. No guesses.


I wasn't aware of an official crackdown on academy signings by the ARU; so would appreciate your listing any links on the matter.


I've been campaigning on rugby forums against the use 17 y.o. and 18 y.o. young players in Super rugby even whilst KB (Kurtley Beale) was still at school knowing how desperate the Tahs were for a permanent flyhalf. Sure enough, a few weeks after his 18th birthday he got prodded out on the park from the bench on the high veld and the following week he started the game. A little tear went down my eye because I had watched him play from age 13 and knew he was a special player, but my heart was in my mouth for his safety.


As I have mentioned before: there are some obvious exceptions to the careful approach. Nobody who saw TPN and Pocock play rugby as schoolboys would doubt their physical ability to handle Super rugby the following year; but how do you formalise rules for such exceptions?


Where was I? Yep I should be doing cartwheels about the reported crackdown which may outlaw the egregious Hooper example and force coaches to recruit senior players to back up a current starting player for when he is injured - and when the original guy is injured, to make sure another becomes available in case the backup is hurt also. This should persuade coaches to have the 2nd senior guy in the squad to start with, and the 3rd senior guy at least in the pro academy. Of itself, this idea should serve to keep youngsters off the park in Super rugby when they should be playing Colts, or at least Colts, then Grade.


But the details you listed seem a bit draconian. I don't like the idea that a boy has to go to another part of the country - from Brisbane to Perth, say, or vice versa. It's a bit over the top in my eyes and doubt if it would past muster legally.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
sportfan - thanks for that. It sounds about right and another thing that is right is that Roach plays bigger than he weighs.

I thought that Millar wasn't that big at first and suggested he may have to switch to LHP or hooker. But when I saw him play for Oz Schools he looked bigger somehow and I recanted. [Maybe because he was packing down next to Roach.] I have the same problem sometimes judging how fast a school player is - perhaps because the fellows he is running away from are not as well known benchmarks as pro players are.

We are not at the point as for College footie in the US where scouts know detailed stats of high school stars but some of we trainspotter rugby heads would like to know a bit more about the lads.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
According to the Newington 1st XV conditioner Roach is 180cms and 96 kgs. According to Brumbies web site Stephen moore is 186 cms and 112kgs and Huia Edmonds is 183 cms and 103 kgs.

Roach is not yet 18 yrs old and has some growing to do. His 2011-2012 stats could be 183+ cms and 105kgs plus without much of and issue.
Not a behmoth but certainly not in the "midget" catagory.

I disagree about him growing taller but he could easily hit 105-110kg.

There have been plenty of successful short hookers.
 
U

Upright

Guest
Yep I know who the lad is - and the father. I wouldn't attach any blame to family at all in the position he plays in. Barring injuries he'll play for the Wallabies one day as sure as God made little green apples.

I also know another father who encouraged his son, not a player in the back 3, to cool his current ambitions in the interests of preparing himself properly. I reckon the lad will end up in the same Wallaby team as the first bloke.

No names; no pack drill. No guesses.
Lee no guesses about who you are referring to as you are much better informed than I. However I am aware that a number of Sydney 1st grade players who have completed their club duties will next week be trialing for the Brumbies Academy - be it non paying or paying, a couple from your club included I believe. With this being the case I am intrigured at the comments on this forum about how many school boys have supposedly "signed' with respective academies.If first grade players (and I assure everyone first grade players are a whole lot bigger/stronger/faster) than schoolboys, are being asked to trial,after being watched by the respective scouts, I take with a grain of salt any claim that a schoolboy has been "signed" - included in their program, encouraged to pursue their footy with the support of that team, maybe but signed, hmmmmmmmmmmm!
 
S

sportsfan

Guest
All this talk about size got me curious and after a bit of googling here are the stats;
Rebels Adam Frier 175cms 98 kg, Heath Tessman 182 cms 105 kgs
Tahs TPN 181 cms 113 kgs Damien F 182 cms 104 kgs
Reds Saia F 187 cms (can this be right?) 105 kgs James Hanson 181 cms 102kgs
Force Ben W 189 cms 113 kgs Nathan Charles 183 cms 104 kgs

So really the Aussie S15 hookers are a pretty consistantly sized sample of modern players with AF at one end and Ben W at the other, the others grouped neatly around 182 cms and 105kgs. interesting stuff.
 
N

NorthernSon

Guest
According to the Newington 1st XV conditioner Roach is 180cms and 96 kgs. According to Brumbies web site Stephen Moore is 186 cms and 112kgs and Huia Edmonds is 183 cms and 103 kgs.

Roach is not yet 18 yrs old and has some growing to do. His 2011-2012 stats could be 183+ cms and 105kgs plus without much of and issue.
Not a behemoth but certainly not in the "midget" catagory.

Hmm,
I suggest your Newington conditioner buy a new tape or he was measured while wearing his mum's high heels whilst she was out of the house. The lad again has talent but stands at 176cm max and is probably an ideal mungo number 9 in the Dean Young mould.

Former NEW Boy Phil Kearns has identified his size (Height ,<178cm) as being a key issue at the next leg of the Rugby journey and suggested he hang upside down from monkey bars as soon as he completes his HSC requirements as part of the off season preparation.
 
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