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Force v Waratahs, R9 2016

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Dismal Pillock

Simon Poidevin (60)

That is a very interesting point - only seen him a few times, but looks the goods. Decent boot, can slip tackles in traffic, make his cover tackles at pace, and with good strength. Experience overseas, could partner Tomane in gold this year.


i have to respectfully disagree completely there squire.
From an AB perspective I would be elated if Petty was picked. Completely unthreatening on attack.
in fact i had a pointlessly spacco tirade about him on another matchday thread just recently:

That Kyle Petty bloke at fullback is not the answer. Not sure he's even a question. Paint-by-numbers rugby player. Damian Mckenzie makes more damaging runs in any given match than I've ever seen Petty make in his entire 200-year Super Rugby career of matches combined.

i'd be more worried about Jesse Mogg than him
 

swingpass

Peter Sullivan (51)
clearly the Force fans have slipped into quiet resignation, nothing on the Western Force thread since April 7 !
or have we amalgamated the Western Force and ARU threads

can the ARU sack Foley ? and if so, who is his replacement
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
i have to respectfully disagree completely there squire.
From an AB perspective I would be elated if Petty was picked. Completely unthreatening on attack.
in fact i had a pointlessly spacco tirade about him on another matchday thread just recently:



i'd be more worried about Jesse Mogg than him
OK. If you pick McKenzie at fullback for the ABs I'll take DHP on the wing. Free tries for our blokes.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
I thought the Tahs played with better pace an intent against the Brumbies - but there were some who only saw the poor skill execution.

It's a double edged sword - teams aren't going to convert from slow paced rugby to high paced, high accuracy rugby overnight. I am heartened that both the Tahs and Reds seem to be trying to lift the pace of their games.

If they persist, accuracy will improve - I have no doubt of that.

Look, again, I don't dispute the criticism you and others have made about the gap in our skills - but I just find it ironic the praise being handed out to the Canes/Chiefs game. I would be surprised if many Canes supporters thought their team played well.

I agree that the Waratahs have improved in the past couple of weeks. Against the Brumbies there was some good and some not so good. The thing is that the Waratahs have been playing high paced rugby for a couple of years, so to me the slip backwards was surprising.

The second half against the Force was good, but to be fair the Force are a fairly listless outfit.

I can accept mistakes if they are part of a positive, aggressive high speed game plan - in fact that game can only be played if one accepts those errors. What's disappointed me about the Waratahs up to this point is the poor performance of the scrum and the error rate of the backs - to me both have been retrograde steps.
 

Piglet

Herbert Moran (7)
I thought it was telling when one of the commentary team mentioned that the Force winger Brache was still to score a try after 30 games.

I think this reflects their lack of direction and purpose out wide in attack as shown in last night's game.

Happy that the Tahs put their 3 year Force losing streak behind them but the true test of whether they have really improved will be against much stronger teams... not a bogey team.

Where is Jackpot playing now? Every time I see Skelton take the ball to the line and get pushed over, I always think about how much better the forwards were when we had Jackpot going crazy with ball in hand.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
I thought it was telling when one of the commentary team mentioned that the Force winger Brache was still to score a try after 30 games.

I think this reflects their lack of direction and purpose out wide in attack as shown in last night's game.

Happy that the Tahs put their 3 year Force losing streak behind them but the true test of whether they have really improved will be against much stronger teams. not a bogey team.

Where is Jackpot playing now? Every time I see Skelton take the ball to the line and get pushed over, I always think about how much better the forwards were when we had Jackpot going crazy with ball in hand.

That marquee has been furled, unfortunately. 2 years done, back in the Republic.
How much better are the grouping of Skelton, Douglas, JacPot and Chapman than what we currently run out (even if Mumm suddenly found 1 year ago form)? Just more balance and greater coverage of "shit that needs doing".
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Cyclo you'll remember I said in 2014 that the loss of Douglas was one that the Tahs had not adequately covered. I remain very disappointed that the issue that was proved true in 2015 was not fixed for 2016. I can accept retaining Mumm who had his best ever season of Rugby in 2015 I thought and I hoped he would kick on from that. Dennis however I could not understand. He is a ponderous 6 without the dynamism required of a top line 6 and he just isn't the foil either Skelton or Lousi need to create an effective 2nd row pairing.

Gibson's biggest errors have been in recruitment, the whole forward pack just lacks balance and they are struggling to find that with the options in the squad.

I cannot take much out of this game, I don't think the Tahs performance was much better than against the Brumbies, they conceded close to the same number of penalties, dropped as much ball and missed about the same number of tackles, against a poorly coached and lost side who don't really know what they are trying to achieve and have lost their only really big strength, their defence. Against the Chiefs, Crusaders, Highlander or Cans I think they would have shipped 30 or 40 points with the number of opportunities that they gave the Force that the Force managed to drop, kick away or otherwise stuff up.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Gibson's biggest errors have been in recruitment, the whole forward pack just lacks balance and they are struggling to find that with the options in the squad.

Agree 100%.

I cannot take much out of this game, I don't think the Tahs performance was much better than against the Brumbies, they conceded close to the same number of penalties, dropped as much ball and missed about the same number of tackles, against a poorly coached and lost side who don't really know what they are trying to achieve and have lost their only really big strength, their defence. Against the Chiefs, Crusaders, Highlander or Cans I think they would have shipped 30 or 40 points with the number of opportunities that they gave the Force that the Force managed to drop, kick away or otherwise stuff up.

That's the thing with the Foley "style" of play - it's ultimately unsustainable. It's actually quite difficult to maintain the discipline of playing an essentially negative, spoiling, risk-averse game. Not only does it bore the hell out of the crowd and frustrate the opposition, it also bores the team that are doing it - added to which their skills atrophy through lack of use and their mental ability to make decisions at speed is diminished.

Jake White's Springboks won a RWC and while they loved the win, Jake was gone soon after - the style of rugby he employed a big part of that.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
The Tahs were better, essentially they caught more passes.

They seem to be working towards a more ensemble, ball in hand side and I have no problem with the concept.

Like the Tahs of the last few years, the style is more about building pressure and finishing rolling over the top, the difference being since we held more passes, were cleaner at the ruck that we actually built some pressure.

It was also notable that there was a better, more effective cleanout. We again saw (as per the last few seasons) of the unit on the hip again and thus we saw less of a dogs breakfast at the breakdown
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Gibson's biggest errors have been in recruitment, the whole forward pack just lacks balance and they are struggling to find that with the options in the squad.

How many spots did he have to actually turnover? Especially in the forwards

Cheika had the final say on most of this squad. It takes a couple of seasons for a new coach to really be "his" squad (Link once said it took "3 years")
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
The shame of this match for me was the talent and effort some Force players have and put in. McCalman never stops trying, the new hooker didn't look out of place in Super rugby, DHP oozes class, Tapuai played well and Godwin did a few good things when he got on the paddock. I've always had a soft spot for Coleman, so I watched him very carefully this match: his name was mentioned only four times (Mafi much more often) but he did a shitload of work deep in rucks and mauls. Exactly what I like to see from a tight five forward. What Adam could do under Cheik's tutelage makes the mind boggle. When selecting locks Simmons, Carter and Arnold are essentially out of the same mould, that of a 4, we need a rock lifter/shifter as well. I think it's time to try Coleman.

The Force lacked cohesion in attack and defence and had no rhythm with ball in hand. And they kicked far too much. That Saffer flyhalf's a dud, who signed him up? The Force management should look for a decent backs coach ASAP. What about throwing a few bob Todd Louden's way for starters? And then give Foley a strict set of criteria to meet or bugger off.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
How many spots did he have to actually turnover? Especially in the forwards



Cheika had the final say on most of this squad. It takes a couple of seasons for a new coach to really be "his" squad (Link once said it took "3 years")



Probably few in reality, but then I did say Chieka made the error in not covering Douglas at the end of 2014. That being said Gibson was part of the coaching team last year so he had a say, unless you think Chieka is a dictator that doesn't take input?

With the emergence of Skelton the Tahs really need a 6 like Fardy, or better one like Mowen who could truly dominate a lineout. Dennis is not the answer and Mumm could have been but has reverted to his mediocre form prior to his Euro sojourn.
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
clearly the Force fans have slipped into quiet resignation, nothing on the Western Force thread since April 7 !
or have we amalgamated the Western Force and ARU threads

can the ARU sack Foley ? and if so, who is his replacement
Exactly the post I was about to make. The malaise of the Force Fans is very close to fatal.

I was camping over the weekend and haven't seen the game yet, but the lack of interest on here, on the street in WA and particularly the media is deeply damaging to the idea of Rugby in WA.

I posted 2 years ago I thought our days were numbered unless some thing drastic happens with talent equalisation across the franchises. I'm calling it now. The Force won't exist after the next broadcast deal.
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
Even the lack of passion amongst Force diehards on here to get rid of Foley is telling. Because no one is convinced we have anything to offer that would attract a better coach.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Probably few in reality, but then I did say Chieka made the error in not covering Douglas at the end of 2014. That being said Gibson was part of the coaching team last year so he had a say, unless you think Chieka is a dictator that doesn't take input?

With the emergence of Skelton the Tahs really need a 6 like Fardy, or better one like Mowen who could truly dominate a lineout. Dennis is not the answer and Mumm could have been but has reverted to his mediocre form prior to his Euro sojourn.


I actually thought Skelton did a lot more very effective clean out work and that Dennis was getting in the work rate rhythm of last season as his locking partner, but yes we need a 6 who is more effective at lineout
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Exactly the post I was about to make. The malaise of the Force Fans is very close to fatal.

I was camping over the weekend and haven't seen the game yet, but the lack of interest on here, on the street in WA and particularly the media is deeply damaging to the idea of Rugby in WA.

I posted 2 years ago I thought our days were numbered unless some thing drastic happens with talent equalisation across the franchises. I'm calling it now. The Force won't exist after the next broadcast deal.

Unless you want to slip into a listless depression or give yourself high blood pressure, I'd give the game a miss.:)
 

2bluesfan

Nev Cottrell (35)
That's the thing with the Foley "style" of play - it's ultimately unsustainable. It's actually quite difficult to maintain the discipline of playing an essentially negative, spoiling, risk-averse game. Not only does it bore the hell out of the crowd and frustrate the opposition, it also bores the team that are doing it - added to which their skills atrophy through lack of use and their mental ability to make decisions at speed is diminished.
Amen, brother.
 

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
G'day All

Have posted the Force v Waratahs Ruck Analysis on the dashboard.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/Super Rugby-aussie-ruck-analysis-round-9/
 

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
clearly the Force fans have slipped into quiet resignation, nothing on the Western Force thread since April 7 !
or have we amalgamated the Western Force and ARU threads

can the ARU sack Foley ? and if so, who is his replacement

Perhaps most of them are just tired of lack of appreciation of their situation in the G&GR Forum space.

At least Wayne Smith in The Australian today gave a good attempt at addressing some of the issues that face the Force. The last 10+ years has been no means an even playing field.


Super Rugby: Western Force in need of cash and attention
Wayne Smith

"They are the club seemingly set up to fail. They receive little help from SANZAAR and, until recently, none from the Australian Rugby Union. Small wonder the Western Force are constantly battling to stay afloat.

They might have been the fourth Australian club created in Super Rugby but they are the fifth in terms of where players want to ply their trade. Sydney and Brisbane are always assured of homegrown talent, Canberra boasts one of the most appealing coaching programs in Super Rugby and the Rebels are milking Melbourne for all it has to offer.

Perth, by contrast, is a continent removed. Indeed, the flight to Johannesburg is only double that of the flight to Brisbane, which goes a long way to explaining why SANZAAR finds the WA team so appealing. The Force play seven matches at home this season, every one of them against teams either coming from or going to South Africa. That might sound like a logical use of geography but in fact the Force is jerked this way and that by the need to service the itineraries of every other Super Rugby team.

Case in point: the Force played their second match of the season against the Reds in Brisbane but then, rather than remain on the east coast or travel to New Zealand, they were forced to backtrack to Perth to play the Brumbies on their way to South Africa.

Only after they had completed that assignment were they able to travel back across Australia and on to New Zealand for a three-match tour. Technically speaking, SANZAAR had done them a favousr by allowing them to play three NZ matches in a block but when that translates to the Hurricanes (currently fifth), Chiefs (first) and Highlanders (sixth) on successive weekends, one wonders what SANZAAR’s idea of punishing them might be.

Similarly, after playing their round 14 match against the Rebels in Melbourne, they have to fly to Bloemfontein for a match against the Cheetahs before rushing home to Perth to play the Stormers, who will be on their way home. Then the Force finish the season by playing the Brumbies in Canberra, not having played successive matches on the east coast through the 17 weeks of Super Rugby.

Every Super Rugby team has stories of difficult itineraries but the Force routinely are subjected to a murderous match schedule that would be funny were it not so exhausting.

The longest journey the Waratahs had to make in the first eight rounds of the competition was to Brisbane. Having played the Force in Perth in round nine last weekend, NSW travelled on to their Cape Town engagement with the Stormers, their only match in South Africa. Their two matches in New Zealand later in the season are widely spaced — Crusaders on May 20, Blues on July 15.

Granted, the Tahs do have to travel to Tokyo to play the Sunwolves on July 2, after a month’s break for the June internationals against England. The Force, too, play in Japan, on May 7, but their match is sandwiched into the main body of the season.

If SANZAAR wishes to continue using Perth to break up the trip to and from South Africa, it surely has to cut the Force some dispensations elsewhere.

Until recently, the ARU had provided the Force with zero assistance, other than whatever the east coast clubs also received. Until this year, they operated on money socked away at the height of the mining boom. This year, however, that nest egg ran out and they *finally turned to the national body.

The ARU handed over $800,000 in exchange for the Force’s intellectual property (it also owns the Rebels, the only private enterprise club in Australia) and now more assistance is in the wind after St Leonards effectively took over the club.

When the Waratahs beat the Force on Saturday night, the discrepancy in pay rates for the two sides was about $2 million. The Tahs had a dozen players on Wallabies top-ups, the Force only one, Ben McCalman.

It’s worth keeping that in mind when Foley’s record of one win for every two losses is raised. Fortunately, Force general manager Mark Sinderberry yesterday said there would be no review of Foley’s position until the end of the season.

But simply redistributing Wallabies by means of a draft isn’t the answer, at least not as far as the ARU is concerned.

Queensland had many a quality player at their disposal in recent years, most topped up by the ARU, but they got their coaching structure entirely wrong and ended up with a win rate of 26 per cent.

A whole range of options and solutions is being discussed, from the coaching culture to player contracting to drafts and top-ups. Many of them are ideas originating in New Zealand and we know from Robbie Deans’ days that Kiwi ideas don’t universally transfer to Australia.

But, hopefully, some of them will."
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Perhaps most of them are just tired of lack of appreciation of their situation in the G&GR Forum space.


Just as a guide, FF (Folau Fainga'a), what do we need to do to better acknowledge your hardship?

How can we make this a more comfortable and safe space for Force fans?

Should we just include a rider on any opinion re the Force that 'G&GR acknowledges the geographical, historical and situational challenges faced by the Western Force, and calls on the ARU to address these issues as soon as possible.'?

Because honestly as I see it there has been plenty of in-depth, informed discussion on the Western Force on here, the front page and the podcast, with a variety of views aired. Plenty, if not all, of those views have been sympathetic to the issues faced.

But if we need to make it even clearer, then so be it.
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