ISA Rugby 2012

[Wood Rat]

I saw your post in the ACT Junior thread, it must be hard maintaining intensity in a small catchment especialy with teams walking away from commitments, The ACT teams competed strongly in the state cup ( I hope the roumers of gear retrieved from a non performing teamwere just that.. roumers) and would be a good addition to a broader competition

 

[angrydog]

Thankyou for your replys.

Marist and Eddies can easily field strong teams in the 1's - 3's divisions. I dont think it would be worthwhile fielding any more. Personally it may only be worthwhile fielding a 1st and 2nd XV and leaving the lower ages to play in the local comp. The point of the exercise would be to try and strengthen theirs and the ISA's senior comps and let Marist and Eddies pull away from a local comp that is not treated seriously enough by all their opponents. Marist and Eddies offer many winter sports which allow boys to have a huge range to choose from. Soccer, Aussie Rules, Hockey etc all attract a following at both schools. This generally leaves around 450 - 500 boys playing rugby at both. Their records at producing Aussie schools reps speaks for itself so I confident they would offer serious competition year in year out. Marist got a touch up from Oakhill this year in W/Shield but so did most of the ISA schools this year. Marist played poorly that day and I am sure they could have provided a better game on another day.

As far as playing against some schools I have supposedly 'berrated' in the past, I am sure I can move on if the reward is improving the quality ot rugby at schools level in the ACT.

As far as traditions etc being jeopardised, I dont buy that. Both these schools have great traditions as well and great schools build on tradtions by continually challenging themselves rather than resting on their laurels and taking the easy option.

Trips from Canberra to Orange...well Brookvale to Orange is a long way too so it shouldnt be an issue really. As far as I know the trips are about the same distance.

 

[Tom Ando]

CAS to combine with ISA next year?

 

[G&GR News Bot]

The 2012 1st XV ISA competition was keenly anticipated with a number of questions waiting to answered – would St Augustine’s continue their dominance of recent years? Would the late 2011 form of Kinross Wolaroi carry over to the 2012 season? Would St Greg’s continue their rugby learning curve and improve their 2011 results and,

Click this link to read the full article...

 

[Pedro]

Rugby Tears Div 1 Criteria: Opens (4 teams), 16 (3 teams), 15 (3 teams), 14 (3 teams), 13 (3 teams).

Using data from the ISA Website and the Rugby Winter 2012 competition tables, a summary reveals the following:
St Augustine’s Opens (3), 16 (3), 15 (3), 14 (3), 13 (4) - Meets RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria
St Stanislaus, Opens (5), 16 (2), 15 (4), 14 (4), 13 (4) – Conceded pass for RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria - work on U16’s.
Kinross, Opens (4), 16 (2), 15 (2), 14 (2), 13 (2) - relegate to ISA Div 2
Oakhill, Opens (5), 16 (3), 15 (4), 14 (5), 13 (4) - Meets RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria
St Patrick’s, Opens (5), 16 (3), 15 (3), 14 (5), 13 (4) - Meets RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria
St Pius, Opens (3), 16 (2), 15 (3), 14 (2), 13 (4) – Conceded pass for RT’s ISA Div 1 Criteria - work on U16’s, U14’s.
St Andrew’s, Opens (2), 16 (1), 15 (2), 14 (1), 13 (1) - relegate to ISA Div 2
St Gregory’s, Opens (3), 16 (1), 15 (1), 14 (2), 13 (2) - relegate to ISA Div 2

I also have a feeling that some schools like St Pats have extra teams in some of the age grades that must play in some non-ISA type competition.

Rugby Tears ISA Div 1 will now be:
St Augustine’s
Oakhill
St Patrick’s
St Pius (Warning to lift game)
St Stanislaus (Warning to lift game)

Relegate to Div 2
St Andrew’s
St Gregory’s
Kinross

A five team ISA Div 1 competition would be a more incestuous competition than the CAS closed shop. Perhaps a time to merge the 5 ISA big schools with CAS?

Based on performances this year, Oakhill and St Augies have shown that they would probably be 1 and 2 in a joint ISA/CAS 1st XV competition.

Hi Huge arse, Stannies actually had 6 open teams this year, admittedly those Sudenese kids play soccer where they come from, but we had a whole Rugby team looking around for a game every weekend, Auggies could only field 3 opens and you are warning Stannies to lift game ?
Too many kids would rather play computer games these days rather than work out at the gym, lets keep the other schools where they are in div 1 and bring CAS into our comp ?

 

[Pedro]

Marist and Eddies would make good competition as well for ISA, as they don't really have much comp in Canberra, maybe they could fit in a couple of rounds at the beginning of the season.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Hey Pedro you are right.

Staring me right in the face of the figures that I typed from the ISA results page was that Augies only had 3 Opens teams.

The Criteria for Div 1 (from Rugby Tears not me) was 4 opens teams, therefore Augies should have been awarded a conceded pass to the IDA Div 1 as well with a "lift your game in the opens" comment.

The comment for Stannies was based on them only having 2 U16 teams, against Rugby Tears's Div 1 Criteria of 3.

My later posts identify that I do not support that criteria but note that something needs to be done to develop more depth in some of the schools - Andrews, Gregs and Pius primarily, or an amalgamation with CAS.

Unfortunately I really can't see the realigment of Sydney School Sporting Associations happening in the short term, and the only association that seems to not be too bound up in the protocols of "historical traditions" is the ISA, even so there would be issues with expansion to include Canberra teams, and perhaps some extras from CCC or CHS association to get more balance in the various divisions.

Building a stronger and more competitive ISA Combined competition would be a good starting point, but the question remains apart from the Canberra teams who else would be prepared to come to the party?

Also what would be the impact on the Canberra Competition what appears to be the two stronger schools departed? Have we not just created the rugby arms race that many posters are so critical of with respect to the GPS Scholarship situation?

Perhaps the Brumbies authorities need to look at their own overall junior player development strategies and focus on developing the depth in those clubs who struggle for numbers, similar to what ISA should be doing with Andrews, Gregs, and Pius.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Hey Pedro you are right.

Staring me right in the face of the figures that I typed from the ISA results page was that Augies only had 3 Opens teams.

The Criteria for Div 1 (from Rugby Tears not me) was 4 opens teams, therefore Augies should have been awarded a conceded pass to the IDA Div 1 as well with a "lift your game in the opens" comment.

The comment for Stannies was based on them only having 2 U16 teams, against Rugby Tears's Div 1 Criteria of 3.

My later posts identify that I do not support that criteria but note that something needs to be done to develop more depth in some of the schools - Andrews, Gregs and Pius primarily, or an amalgamation with CAS.

Unfortunately I really can't see the realigment of Sydney School Sporting Associations happening in the short term, and the only association that seems to not be too bound up in the protocols of "historical traditions" is the ISA, even so there would be issues with expansion to include Canberra teams, and perhaps some extras from CCC or CHS association to get more balance in the various divisions.

Building a stronger and more competitive ISA Combined competition would be a good starting point, but the question remains apart from the Canberra teams who else would be prepared to come to the party?

Also what would be the impact on the Canberra Competition what appears to be the two stronger schools departed? Have we not just created the rugby arms race that many posters are so critical of with respect to the GPS Scholarship situation?

Perhaps the Brumbies authorities need to look at their own overall junior player development strategies and focus on developing the depth in those clubs who struggle for numbers, similar to what ISA should be doing with Andrews, Gregs, and Pius.

I can tell you that Greg's are working on developing the necessary depth. It just takes time to introduce what is effectively still a new sport in a school previously dominated by just two. Same for Soccer at the school. It has been present for quite some time but it has still taken many years for it to be considered even close to equal (still lags behind League and Cricket). Rugby will come on much quicker than Soccer but for it to really take the jump much sooner ISA would have to move the season back to term three to avoid clashes with League which is unlikely or something seriously abhorrent in League for the school to abandon the game completely.

As for the ISA and new teams. The association should really look to add in new schools from the likes of CCC and CHS as suggested above. Schools of the likes of Hills and Westfields would be good strong editions to the ISA fold. It actually could be used as Rugby's move into Western/South Western Sydney. There are a few schools in the Macarthur region that could be targeted such as Macarthur Anglican, Broughton Anglican and about three other Catholic schools that would see the opportunity to enter in such a organisation as a means to elevate their standing.

The Illawarra would be another. The Illawarra Grammar School plays Rugby out of Wollongong Uni. Approching them could be worthwhile. Overall, I think the the ISA should be looking to develop say 3 divisions of say 10 Schools each on a promo/relegation setup. Once they achieve this then they could look to build a minimum standard across the board which in theory would elevate all involved.

 

[Wood Rat]

I can tell you that Greg's are working on developing the necessary depth. It just takes time to introduce what is effectively still a new sport in a school previously dominated by just two. Same for Soccer at the school. It has been present for quite some time but it has still taken many years for it to be considered even close to equal (still lags behind League and Cricket). Rugby will come on much quicker than Soccer but for it to really take the jump much sooner ISA would have to move the season back to term three to avoid clashes with League which is unlikely or something seriously abhorrent in League for the school to abandon the game completely.

As for the ISA and new teams. The association should really look to add in new schools from the likes of CCC and CHS as suggested above. Schools of the likes of Hills and Westfields would be good strong editions to the ISA fold. It actually could be used as Rugby's move into Western/South Western Sydney. There are a few schools in the Macarthur region that could be targeted such as Macarthur Anglican, Broughton Anglican and about three other Catholic schools that would see the opportunity to enter in such a organisation as a means to elevate their standing.

The Illawarra would be another. The Illawarra Grammar School plays Rugby out of Wollongong Uni. Approching them could be worthwhile. Overall, I think the the ISA should be looking to develop say 3 divisions of say 10 Schools each on a promo/relegation setup. Once they achieve this then they could look to build a minimum standard across the board which in theory would elevate all involved.

Eastwood is an MCS school that claims to have been a significant part of creating the impotous for establishing an MCS Rugby comp, and given the thumping it regularly got from the sponsored league schools in the MCS there was some motivation...are there too many Table tennis players there now to have any impact?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

There was a 7s competition going for a while but I'm unaware of any MCS Rugby competition. I know a teacher from there effectively ran the MCS rep team that as a Greg's old boy and because of some of his selection choices in the role, I have no affinity for the guy. They'd be a weak-ish choice for mine but you never know. I'd suggest that there status in League would likely transfer to Rugby.

 

[RugbyTears]

I mostly disagree with the "Size matters" argument of Rugby Tears, and in some respects this view could fuel an Arms race like GPS is frequently acused of having.

Good athletes at Div 2 schools may be "encouraged" to enrol at ISA div 1 schools or CAS/GPS. The talent pool and wide base will be diminished. The collective masses need to look at ways of helping grow the game and rugby programmes in the "weaker" schools.

An 8 team competition is a nice number. So what if there are easybeats in that competition, there are at the Rugby World Cup, the Olympics and DiveBall World cup as well. Why should ISA be any different?

Last time I looked, the ISA charter was about participation not winning. Parents need to remember that sport is a "normal" school activity that is not run solely for the benefits of parents to provide them with bragging rights.

How can a 1600 student school vs a 800 student school be considered competing on a level playing field? To paraphrase J. Stalin "there is a certain quality in quanty".

Any move to relegate Kinross, Greg's and Andrew's to Div 2 would be counter productive, and most likely against the ISA charter, IMHO.

Hugh, thanks for your replies to my comments on the size of ISA Div 1. I am sorry you may have misunderstood the reason for my suggestion. I am not recommending weaker rugby school should be banished to some scrapheap along with old boots and ripped tackle shields. Quite the opposite – it was exciting news to hear St Andrews beat St Pats and what a great day of rugby last Saturday seeing all the Div 2 teams being so well supported in their semi final matches. What concerns me in Div 1 is the weaker schools are getting weaker. Take St Andrews for example. A group of parents from their school was telling me they simply cannot get enough kids to play because week in week out they get flogged. These are kids - not Olympians, not RWC test players nor Dive Ball World Cup contestants. As you correctly pointed out, they have one team per age group except in the Opens. Their 2nds are playing the 3rds competition and the younger kids are mainly playing against the C teams from the other schools. You take a fixture such as Oakhill vs St Andrews – while St Andrews 14’A’s was getting beaten 48 to 12 by the Oakhill 14Cs, Oakhill sent their 14As to go toe to toe with a GPS 14As team somewhere else in Sydney. How in the hell is Andrews 1st XV going to compete in 3 years time? The weak to getting weaker and the strong is getting stronger. Do we want Andrews 1stXV to be like Sydney High and get humiliated by 100 points before something is done? You said so yourself, ISA charter is about participation. Sydney High is not exactly “participating” anymore, whereas rugby in Chevalier is doing just fine since moving to ISA Div 2. I don’t mean to pick on St Andrews but it is not good to see them sliding further every year, compared to when they joined Div 1 not that long ago, and I know they have some great people working for rugby there. Certainly don’t want them ending up without a rugby program anymore which is where they are heading if they don't play in a comp that is a more level playing field for them and keep losing numbers.
This is the reason why I was advocating reducing the numbers and I also think joining CAS is not the answer. It maybe is the answer for the stronger schools (strength in playing standards & numbers). Assuming we achieve world peace and world hunger is resolved and god forbid CAS agrees to merge with ISA. They are not going to let all the ISA Div 1 schools join them. Let’s say they take Auggies, Oakhill, Pats just for argument sake. What the hell do we do with Kinross or Stannies or Greg’s for that matter? They can’t go to Div 2. It will send them backwards which is a point we both agree on. That’s how I concluded with a reduced double round ISA comp. If the issue you have with my idea is the number of teams I suggested, you got me. I concede I came up with these numbers as a gudeline indicating playing strength only. But I don't agree with you status quo is the way forward.

 

[exISA]

What ever happened to Hurlstone Ag College. Back in my day they were in ISA div 1, copped floggings, then moved their first xv to the 2nd xv comp and pasted every body (the team contained David Lyons) . What I never understood was - why was the rep players from Hurlstone playing CHS and not ISA even though they were in ISA?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

What ever happened to Hurlstone Ag College. Back in my day they were in ISA div 1, copped floggings, then moved their first xv to the 2nd xv comp and pasted every body (the team contained David Lyons) . What I never understood was - why was the rep players from Hurlstone playing CHS and not ISA even though they were in ISA?

Significant demographic changes at the school has lead to them effectively falling off the radar. As for rep players representing CHS, well Hurlstone is a government selective school so it makes sense that they feature in CHS as well as ISA. Though it would be good for the game to re-established at the school and re-enter the ISA structures.

 

[Pedro]

What ever happened to Hurlstone Ag College. Back in my day they were in ISA div 1, copped floggings, then moved their first xv to the 2nd xv comp and pasted every body (the team contained David Lyons) . What I never understood was - why was the rep players from Hurlstone playing CHS and not ISA even though they were in ISA?

Hurlstone were a rugby good school, my nephew Ben Price approx 27 years old played As and 1st XV right through, and his Hurlstone team never lost to Stannies, and Hurstone 1st XV was selected to rep Australia to play in Dabai.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Do the ISA have any plans for 7s? I think it would be worthwhile for the association to look to set up Sevens league competition. Playing it in either term 1 or 4 over 6 tournament meetings you could have all the participating schools across both divisions participate. School could enter as many teams as they saw fit. Would be great for them to be the first schools association to embrace the format as an official competition structure.

 

[Wood Rat]

Augies win Warratah Shield 27-17
so is that an unfair result given the season?
or does it reflect a team (and Coachs') ability to target a specific result and work toward that?
or are Augies just bits of burglers/card sharks?
did selecting the ISA teams the way they were give an opportunity to individuals both teams to display their wears (though a bit rough on the players in the other 6 or 8 ISA 1st and 2nd division teams) in the best light in established combinations?
did Oaks suffer from a longer rest, given Augies had a good opose training run against Kinross?,
were Oaks, like the Stannies boys more into the HSC than the match?
How many of the players from each side will be back next year?
Given the 30 point improvemet of the Kinross U16 team over the past 12 months maybe their 1stXV will be the team to watch in 2013 and 14

now the sun is comming back its nearly time to go back into hibernation

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Over in the GPS 2013 threads, some punters have already posted their view of the 2013 1st XV squads, including some interschool movements of some rep players currently not in the GPS system.

Anyone particularly keen to have a lash at possible squads for next year?

Congrats to all and sundry at both Oak and St Augs. Some outstanding footy from both camps this year.

With ISA Comp to Oak, and the Waratah to Auggies, it is a bit like kissing your Nana with no real winner for bragging rights.

The 2012 Oakhill and Auggies boys and supporters will be discussing these two results for many years to come.

 

[Hard Hit]

Match Report Please.

 

[lily]

Looking forward to Pine Cone and No9's response to this result.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Methinks you're fishing Lily.

The sign of a true champion is that they are humble in victory and gracious in defeat.

I am sure that any comments will be balanced, objective and accurate.

Poor buggers were probably at work feeding the machine and may not have been able to get time off to actually watch the game.