RWC 2015

[Hugh Jarse]

What hope is there for Australian Rugby when there are statements like "Go the Reds" on the RWC 2015 thread?

In the context of this thread, the "Reds" would be the Welsh team.

 

[RugbyReg]

What hope is there for Australian Rugby when there are statements like "Go the Reds" on the RWC 2015 thread?

In the context of this thread, the "Reds" would be the Welsh team.

to be honest I reckon that statement will have absolutely no impact on the 2015 Wallaby season.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Do you really think provincial coaches would play their squad differently to their plans just because the Wallaby coach asks? We've seen precious little evidence in recent seasons of this, I can't imagine why they'd start now. Look at how Larkham plays To'omua and Leali'ifano. Super Rugby coaches will do what's best for them. Always have. I don't recall anyone bending to Deans' or McKenzie's will in seasons past.
The situation isn't ideal, but he, and his assistants, will see plenty of players. Lots of Super Rugby games to watch each week.
Anyway, the conspiracy theorists won't be convinced, so not sure why I bother.

Your point about the provincial coaches is exactly mine also. And that combined with the reduced opportunity for another provincial coach who happens to be the national coach to get to games involving other provinces or to their training days (as previous national coaches have been able to do) will lessen his influence on how those players need to be playing to suit his plans for the national team. I don't think it's just a matter of plenty of games to be seen each week. As national coach he needs to be able to have input into the way potential Wallabies are playing or being used at provincial level.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, just the potential to be a complete stuff up. In the national interest, Cheika should be giving up his attachment to the Tahs but I don't really see that happening in 2015.

 

[Viking]

It's a silly assumption to think that Cheika would sabotage the most illustrious job of his career by not selecting the best players in the country.

Cheika is on a hiding to nothing this RWC given how late in the piece he's taken over. He's contracted for two years past the RWC but will be dying to stay in the job to get another crack at 2019.

Thinking that his priority won't be to do as well as possible with the Wallabies seems well into tinfoil hat territory.

The players know what Cheika expects of them particularly in regards to fitness and physicality and there is no reason that they can't excel in that area regardless of which province they play for. The scrum is a huge weakness so players forming part of a dominant scrum at Super Rugby level will also surely be looked upon favourably.

I never said it was sabotage. I said the Tahs players have an unfair advantage that they get to work with the wallabies coach for an extra 15+ weeks.

It's not an unfair assumption that Cheika is going to put in place very similar principles at the Tahs and the wallabies. It's also not an unfair assumption that other provinces will have entirely different principles and tactics. For example, Maybe the Rebels want Higgers to play loose and Cheika wants his 6 to play tight.

Picking the best players will mean picking ones that fit into the wallabies structures, given the Tahs structures will be nearly identical you can bet your ass that the Tahs players all have an advantage.

Of coarse some players from other provinces will be too good to ignore. But like I mentioned before certain players certainly have an advantage. Players like Phipps, Foley, Beale, TPN, Hooper have a massive advantage over White/Genia, Cooper/To'omua, Lilo, Moore, Pocock/Hodgson.

 

[Braveheart81]

You could also argue that the kicking in general play is a major weak point for the Wallabies and the Brumbies have the strongest focus on general play kicking so their players will get a selection advantage in that area.

The Reds had the best overall set piece in 2014 so their players will be advantaged when it comes to those selections because the Wallabies have to place a bigger emphasis on scrummaging in particular.

Players who demonstrate superior fitness and physicality will likely be looked upon more favourably. Halfbacks playing at pace will be looked on favourably. People seem to be suggesting that these aren't universally beneficial traits for rugby players and that their provincial teams won't benefit from that.

Team tactics can certainly hurt a player's chances of being selected if they really don't allow them to show off the skills relevant for a game plan similar to that of the Wallabies, but that was true under McKenzie as well.

I agree that players that made themselves first choice in 2014 will have an advantage in 2015. I disagree that it's because they play for the Waratahs.

Phipps, Foley, Hooper, To'omua, Kuridrani, McCalman etc. clearly have an advantage over players like Pocock, White, Genia, etc. because they were first choice in the team less than a year before the RWC.

Players who weren't part of that first choice 23 at the end of 2014 are playing catch up regardless of where they play.

 

[cyclopath]

Your point about the provincial coaches is exactly mine also. And that combined with the reduced opportunity for another provincial coach who happens to be the national coach to get to games involving other provinces or to their training days (as previous national coaches have been able to do) will lessen his influence on how those players need to be playing to suit his plans for the national team. I don't think it's just a matter of plenty of games to be seen each week. As national coach he needs to be able to have input into the way potential Wallabies are playing or being used at provincial level.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, just the potential to be a complete stuff up. In the national interest, Cheika should be giving up his attachment to the Tahs but I don't really see that happening in 2015.

But Wallaby coaches have had very little meaningful input into how players are used provincially, so why do you keep bringing this up? Our points are not at all the same. You're claiming an issue for Cheika that has existed for ages. Look at how Fisher, White and Larkham used players, for instance. I don't know why you think it would change if Cheika was only the Waalby coach. Unless the ARU directed provincial teams to be "managed" by the Wallaby coach, and if you really think they'd be able to do that, you are naive.
I honestly would have preferred Cheika stuck with the Waratahs rather than inherit the clusterfuck of the Wallaby job. I'd love to see Jake White trying to get everyone reading from his song sheet. Or whoever else might have got it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Viking]

You could also argue that the kicking in general play is a major weak point for the Wallabies and the Brumbies have the strongest focus on general play kicking so their players will get a selection advantage in that area.

The Reds had the best overall set piece in 2014 so their players will be advantaged when it comes to those selections because the Wallabies have to place a bigger emphasis on scrummaging in particular.

Players who demonstrate superior fitness and physicality will likely be looked upon more favourably. Halfbacks playing at pace will be looked on favourably. People seem to be suggesting that these aren't universally beneficial traits for rugby players and that their provincial teams won't benefit from that.

Team tactics can certainly hurt a player's chances of being selected if they really don't allow them to show off the skills relevant for a game plan similar to that of the Wallabies, but that was true under McKenzie as well.

I agree that players that made themselves first choice in 2014 will have an advantage in 2015. I disagree that it's because they play for the Waratahs.

Phipps, Foley, Hooper, To'omua, Kuridrani, McCalman etc. clearly have an advantage over players like Pocock, White, Genia, etc. because they were first choice in the team less than a year before the RWC.

Players who weren't part of that first choice 23 at the end of 2014 are playing catch up regardless of where they play.

But if Chieka is a good coach and he wants better kicking then why won't he be working on it at the Tahs next year?

If he wants more emphasis on set-peice then why isn't he working on it at the Tahs?

2014 there was no Tah bias. I agree. But 2015 there will be because Chieka has 15+ extra weeks to work with players on exactly what he want from them at the wallabies.

To say traits are universally accepted is only half true. Who's to say White wouldn't play a quicker, sharper game if he was at the Tahs? Or who's to say To'omua wouldn't be playing flat and attacking the line like at the Tahs. They have 15+ weeks of playing a balanced game involving a heap of kicking game, and Foley and Phipps have 15+ weeks of practising on how to play a wallabies game.

You said it yourself, team tactics can hurt a players chance of being selected, therefore certain Tahs players have will have an advantage in 2015. Incumbents can and will hold their spots but a Tah is certainly the most likely to replace one given they have practised the same structures for a whole season.

To be fair, given the circumstance this is not Cheika's fault. But having him as Tahs coach and Wallabies coach is far from ideal, it is a bad for Cheika, bad for other players from other provinces, bad for wallabies preparations, bad for Tahs players at winning super XV again, but great for the Tahs players chances of being a wallaby.

 

[Braveheart81]

Let's agree to disagree.

If a whole host of Tahs players who haven't been part of the EOYT and aren't obvious ones like TPN and Palu get selected then you were right and playing for the Tahs was an unfair advantage.

If the squad selected is largely the same as EOYT 2014 with a few key injured players added then your conspiracy theories were wrong.

In any country with any coach, players returning from injury or who were behind on form a year out from the RWC have more to do to put themselves ahead of someone who was an incumbent player at the end of 2014.

 

[Viking]

I don't understand how you can not recognise the advantages the Tahs players will have.

Its simple. The wallabies coach will have a massive influence on Tahs players for a whole season. But the wallabies coach will only have a limited influence on Reds, Brumbies, Force, and Rebels players.

You cannot possibly argue that this does not at least slightly give Tahs players more opportunity to make the wallabies squad.

Maybe it won't affect half the current wallabies squad, or those senior players returning from injury. BUT even if it only affects one fringe player, that is still an advantage.

 

[Viking]

Let me give you one final example which will cement my argument.

Let's say the Brumbies trade Phipps for White next year.

Who do think will benefit, in regards to wallabies selection more?

My bet is the incumbent Phipps will still hold his spot BUT White will certainly increases his chances as he will have 15+ weeks to practise an uptempo, very quick service, kick-free game at the Tahs.

The player who will benefit will be the Tahs player.

 

[Braveheart81]

I disagree with you. Move on.

 

[Mr Doug]

What hope is there for Australian Rugby when there are statements like "Go the Reds" on the RWC 2015 thread?

In the context of this thread, the "Reds" would be the Welsh team.

Quite true, Hugh.
BTW, my latest LRJs only worked for the Welsh Test, so I will ceremoniously cut them up, rather than set fire to them, (due to it being the bush fire season)! A 2015 model will be purchased at the post-Christmas sales!

 

[tragic]

I don't favour the idea that there is some crackpot conspiracy theory to get waratahs into a wallabies jersey. It would be hard to argue that there will not be a degree of subconscious influence however.
And there is no doubt that there is a conflict of interest which the ARU would not have accepted if there were any other coaching options available.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

My bet is the incumbent Phipps will still hold his spot BUT White will certainly increases his chances as he will have 15+ weeks to practise an uptempo, very quick service, kick-free game at the Tahs.

He should be ******* well practising that game even if he's only playing grade - he's a frigging half back........in Australia

 

[Viking]

I don't favour the idea that there is some crackpot conspiracy theory to get waratahs into a wallabies jersey. It would be hard to argue that there will not be a degree of subconscious influence however.
And there is no doubt that there is a conflict of interest which the ARU would not have accepted if there were any other coaching options available.

For the record I do not argue their is any conspiracy theory either. Simply having a coach for both a provincial team and a test team will certainly favour the provincial team players. It just so happens that it is the Tahs. Same thing if Mckenzie had of stayed on as Reds coach.

For those who don't understand:

Lets say you are going for a promotion at work. You get to practise in the position for a whole year. Does this mean you are the best candidate for the job? No. There could still be other candidates who are still better skilled and more experienced then you are, BUT it certainly does give you an advantage having practised in the position all season and will only increase your chances of making that job permanent. Same thing for the Tahs next year. They get a whole year of practice under wallabies structures - or close to it.

 

[Viking]

He should be ******* well practising that game even if he's only playing grade - he's a frigging half back....in Australia

But the Brumbies implement a territory game at times. and have been successful doing so. This means less opportunity for Nic to show off his running game etc. as he is concerned with making territory.

Does he still get to show off quick service? Yes. But not as much as Phipps at the Tahs. For example: an 80% focus from Nic on quick service at the Brumbies compared with 90% focus on that aspect of the game for Phipps at the Tahs gives Phipps a 10% advantage of that aspect of the game. Which gives him an advantage come wallabies selection.

 

[tragic]

For the record I do not argue their is any conspiracy theory either.

That wasn't directed at you - I actually agree with a lot of your points.
If I was in one of the hotly contested positions I'd certainly rather be in the tahs than one of the other provinces.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

But the Brumbies implement a territory game at times. and have been successful doing so. This means less opportunity for Nic to show off his running game etc. as he is concerned with making territory.

Does he still get to show off quick service? Yes. But not as much as Phipps at the Tahs. For example: an 80% focus from Nic on quick service at the Brumbies compared with 90% focus on that aspect of the game for Phipps at the Tahs gives Phipps a 10% advantage of that aspect of the game. Which gives him an advantage come wallabies selection.

Is there a province in Australia that favours slow service from its 9?
I think you're over analysing it or something.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Most seem to think Chek is the saviour of rugby, particularly for the Tahs. Who says the Tahs will have a season like 2014. Its hard to backup.

The reality is that as Wallaby coach his percentages are shithouse. Yeah yeah, new coach and all that but the results speak for themselves.

Personally I don't think there is positive discrimination for Tahs players. Chek will pick who he believes will do the best in green and gold. If they are Tahs, then fine, if they are Reds, Rebels, Ponies or Force then fine as well. The bloke is no idiot. He knows his repuatation is tied to the success of the national team.

 

[Viking]

Is there a province in Australia that favours slow service from its 9?
I think you're over analysing it or something.

No. You are right quick service is the same. But certain provinces favours a kicking 9 compared to a running nine at times. The province that favours the running 9 will be beneficial towards wallabies selection.