Sharks v Reds Rnd 5 2014

[Braveheart81]

Why do they? Surely that is where the majority of their income comes from, ie their job..

The situation a couple of years ago had most of the 'full time' referees still maintaining another job (mostly a profession of some sort) or some public speaking.

I guess they aren't paid enough to expect them to give up everything else. Particularly when there is a substantial off season even for the test referees.

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[Troy]

Why do they? Surely that is where the majority of their income comes from, ie their job..

There was a bit on Alain Roland recently on Total rugby. He's in finance, mortgages I think it was and refs on the weekend. So now that he's retired that was were he would carry on.

I'm sure not all refs have that, but he did so there must be others?


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[Mank]

Neutral refs are a must now. Some really shitty calls. That chip and chase then knock on. About 2 meters forward and he called it back????

If he knocked it forward, how did he end up in front of the ball by several meters? Clearly it was knocked backward.

 

[Mank]

Its not a good look, when in Durban in front of however many Saffas all going mental, you have three SA referees and the opposition tight head prop speaking to the referee a length in an language you don't understand.

The referee was responding in English, to his credit. He can't control what language the players choose to use.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Mank, he was running at full pace. The ball clearly did continue forward, just nowhere near the rate he was travelling.

But anyway, I'm more concerned about our handling errors that officiating errors.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Why do they? Surely that is where the majority of their income comes from, ie their job..

I think they're paid per game by SANZAR, to be a full time ref the ARU/SARU/NZRU would need to employ them separately. I don't know for sure, but I think guys like Joubert and Peyper from SA are full time refs, Jackson from NZ, Walsh from Aus (but I think he still has a job apart from reffing).

So yea I think if you aren't a test referee odds are you have a job apart from rugby, same with the AR's for super15.

It's actually not that bad, being mentally prepared to take on a super rugby game on the weekend would involve taking your mind of rugby as much as possible throughout the week.

You might have noticed Joubert has been in NZ the last few games, trading the full time refs for weeks at a time is one way to change it up a bit.

Saying that, if Jackson swapped with Joubert, that leaves NZ in a much worse position than SA. SA have 5 good refs to cover the derby games, NZ are left with just a couple others.

 

[Brumby Jack]

I have had a colleague who speaks Afrikaans and had a crack at translating the exchange between JdP and the ref.

'Listen here quickly I have to close my shoulder, Balie Swart said I cannot open my shoulder and f..k..ing bind. I have to bind under the armpit, Paddy O Brien said I can bind like that so don't come and lecture me'

Then he said 'don't forget the steaks for the braai at my place after the game'*.

Balie Swart is the SA Rugby Union scrum 'guru'.



* = possibly true

 

[USARugger]

I'm assuming he means that he can't open his shoulder because it would compromise his back position and not because of some crazy law I've never heard of, right?

If so..that's the silliest argument I've ever heard.

 

[Mank]

Mank, he was running at full pace. The ball clearly did continue forward, just nowhere near the rate he was travelling.

I'm not sure if you've been involved in the many forward pass debates, but you probably understand by now that a ball travelling forward relative to the ground does not imply a forward pass. Precisely for the reason you state above, it could have been passed backward over his head and still go forward relative to the ground.

I'm wondering if the same also applies to knock forwards? Perhaps it does not and I'm mistaken.

 

[Mank]

I have had a colleague who speaks Afrikaans and had a crack at translating the exchange between JdP and the ref.

'Listen here quickly I have to close my shoulder, Balie Swart said I cannot open my shoulder and f..k..ing bind. I have to bind under the armpit, Paddy O Brien said I can bind like that so don't come and lecture me'

If this is true then JdP should be banned for 4-8 weeks. Speaking to a referee like that is completely unacceptable. I can't watch the clip at work, or I'd have a look myself.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm not sure if you've been involved in the many forward pass debates, but you probably understand by now that a ball travelling forward relative to the ground does not imply a forward pass. Precisely for the reason you state above, it could have been passed backward over his head and still go forward relative to the ground.

I'm wondering if the same also applies to knock forwards? Perhaps it does not and I'm mistaken.

A pass applies to which direction the hands throw the ball, not the direction the ball moves.

The same does not apply to knock ons. The ball travelled forwards. The distance appeared less, to the point it was not noticeable unless you were watching for the direction (which an official would of course be doing) because the player overran it at full pace. You clearly see it advancing towards the try line as it bounces.

 

[Mank]

A pass applies to which direction the hands throw the ball, not the direction the ball moves.

Yes. This is well known.

The same does not apply to knock ons.

Is this your opinion, or can you quote the relevant laws section? Note that the laws for the forward pass do not mention "direction the hands throw the ball" so I'd not expect the knock forward law to mention it either.

The ball travelled forwards. The distance appeared less, to the point it was not noticeable unless you were watching for the direction (which an official would of course be doing) because the player overran it at full pace. You clearly see it advancing towards the try line as it bounces.

Yes, obviously this is the case, we can see that. The point is, it went backward out the hands and I assumed the same ruling for pass forwards applies to knock forwards. I accept that I could be wrong, but I'd like to see the laws or other clarification on it rather than an opinion.

EDIT: I've edited my post for more clarity.

 

[Shiggins]

If he knocked it forward, how did he end up in front of the ball by several meters? Clearly it was knocked backward.

Because he was at full pace. Dah!

 

[Slim 293]

Is this your opinion, or can you quote the relevant laws section? Note that the laws for the forward pass do not mention "direction the hands throw the ball" so I'd not expect the knock forward law to mention it either.

The following video and corresponding article can explain:

Halfpenny threw the ball backward but it went forward. "An object in motion stays in motion," wrote Newton, "with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Fall out of a moving car and you will hit the ground not at the spot at which you left the vehicle but, depending on its speed, some metres in front. Take a running jump off the back of a moving truck and, again, you fall forward of the point you left it.

Law 12 is simple in its definition: "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward." 'Forward' means towards the opposition's dead ball line." The one stated exception to the rule is if a ball is not thrown forward but hits a player or the ground and then bounces forward.

The Australian Rugby Union issued a video seven years ago explaining why momentum meant that a pass looking forward was illusory and that spectators who yelled at a referee to blow up after the player passing the ball was tackled immediately after releasing it were wrong: it merely looked forward because by the time the receiver caught it, he was well in front of the prone passer whereas had both continued their runs unchecked, he would have remained behind.

The video also showed how, when a player is running at pace, if he delivered a forward pass it would almost be impossible for the receiver to catch the ball because it would be so far in front of him. The International Rugby Board issued a clarification to its throw forward regulation before the 2011 World Cup, emphasising the points raised in the video, and they have been observed by referees and television match officials since.

 

[Mank]

The following video and corresponding article can explain:

I'm quite confused. How can you read my posts and come to the conclusion that I am the one who does not understand the 'momentum' part of the judgement of forward passes? If you read up again, it's quite plain that I am debating with a couple of others who seem to think that forward relative to the ground means forward.

The only question I have, which I don't think has been answered, is if the same logic applied to handling errors (ie. knock forward) as is applied to a forward pass.

To be more specific, there was a handling error, and the ball went backward out the hands, but forward relative to the ground. If it was passed, it would not be a forward pass. But does this constitute a knock-forward (provide evidence to support answer)?

 

[Lindommer]

Here I am, stuck in the beautiful Blue Mountains with a bottle of decent red to soothe my worried soul, trying to ascertain how many angels there are on a pinhead. And you come up with "is a ball's motion forward relative to the ground from a pass different to a non-pass?".

Another bottle please James.....

 

[Mank]

Ha.

Well, there are people on this thread who say it was a knock-forward. I'm just curious why they believe the knock-forward law is applied differently to the pass-forward law.

I don't mind which was it's ruled, I'd just like to know. I like to be educated

 

[Train Without a Station]

Mank, you're fucking starting to shit me.

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=12

IRB Section 12.

Definition: Knock-on
1 2

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

A pass is described as when a player throws or passes the ball forward. There is no note of it on the website, however the exception is know is the ball is thrown backwards, but travels forward due to momentum. In that case it is not thrown forward, so it still complies.

As a one is intentional and the laws of physics prevent it and one is an error I imagine no exception is made for the error.

 

[Ash]

Correct - no exemption is make for momentum with knock ons. Broadly, if the ball hits the hands or arm and goes forward and hits anything other than the player in question, it's a knock on. Knock ons are often incorrectly ruled for the ball hitting the player's chest, or head.

Forward passes are accessed as when the ball leaves the player's hands in a forward motion, so the momentum of the player must be taken into account.

 

[EatSleepDrinkRuck]

"But what I want to know, and what none of you will explain to me, is why, or even whether, an exception that applies solely to passes could, in fact, apply to something that is not a pass..."

Irritating.