Springboks vs All Blacks @ Ellispark

[PaarlBok]

Nothing I said above contradicts that.

Anyway, gonna stop going in circles here with immediate effect.

I dont understand how you can state any player isnt worth on test level IF he hasnt been select to play on that level? Surely if a player shines on provincial level , he should get a chance on the next level and in SA you want the coach to really give PoC a go because it isnt if you kick them out behind every bush.

 

[Blue]

I think it is patently obvious that most players playing Super Rugby are not test quality.

They just don't look the part for lots of different reasons.

Sure, some might come though and surprise us all, but that is a rare thing.

The gap between Currie Cup and Test rugby is huge. Are you suggesting that every player who has looked good at Currie Cup level is good enough for test rugby?

 

[PaarlBok]

The gap between Currie Cup and Test rugby is huge. Are you suggesting that every player who has looked good at Currie Cup level is good enough for test rugby?

Now you try to put words in my mouth. My question to you Brute folks is, how can you write a player off if he havent been tested on test level?

 

[PiXeL_Ninja]

Transformation policy dictates that he is of the wrong colour. We are oversubscribed in the white/coloured player stocks. If Carr was black, he might have gotten a look into. That said, are his Super Rugby stats that great? Surely the Bok coaching staff would be privy to all of that and would have taken it into consideration. He is not there for a reason. So unless there is some sort of conspiracy around not selecting him, he simply isn't good enough to crack the nod as we are well stocked in that position.

I would be happy to withdraw my statement of him not being good enough if you can present his stats being superior to those that have been selected in his place.

 

[PaarlBok]

Transformation policy dictates that he is of the wrong colour. We are oversubscribed in the white/coloured player stocks. If Carr was black, he might have gotten a look into. That said, are his Super Rugby stats that great? Surely the Bok coaching staff would be privy to all of that and would have taken it into consideration. He is not there for a reason. So unless there is some sort of conspiracy around not selecting him, he simply isn't good enough to crack the nod as we are well stocked in that position.

I would be happy to withdraw my statement of him not being good enough if you can present his stats being superior to those that have been selected in his place.

Go back one page, he is already in and a favourate to go on tour. Are you saying if he makes it, he is a qouta?

 

[Ulrich]

I think we are being distasteful with all our comments about our own players and our own team here on a thread related to a game between the two best sides.

This will be my last post to this thread about this. I'm happy to discuss it further in a thread dedicated to "South African Selections"

Anyway, PB, I respect your opinion on Heinrich Brussouw. I don't dismiss him and I'm not saying he is a bad player or that he wouldn't excel in a Bok jersey. I just don't agree that he is better than what we have, but I could be wrong.

While Nizaam Carr is a good player I don't think he is "wow" either. There are many players that could potentially be Boks now and in also in the past. I think they wouldn't let us down but they aren't the best. Some of them are:

• Keegan Daniel - actually is a Bok, albeit briefly. I admit I've never been a fan.
• Josh Strauss - I was a big fan of his and wanted him in the Bok side, but I believe the coaches know more stats-wise and that's why he was never selected. Don't know how he's doing in Scotland now.
• Jackques Botes.
• Katrakilis - Typical old-school Bok-mould Flyhalf isn't he? A bit early to dismiss him I guess, he could still make it.
• Heinke van der Merwe (Never understood why he didn't receive more attention from the national selectors)
• Barrit - Who would he have replaced at the time? Still doesn't make him a bad player.
• Peter Grant - Many people are fans and he is solid, but I'm not a fan. Strange how the provincial team I support has many "close but no cigar" players in my opinion. Perhaps that's why the Stormers have had similar results in Super Rugby.
• Kockott - His attitude / discipline may very well be his downfall. Not unlike Keegan Daniel I suspect.
• Jantjies - Another so-so Bok who had a brief spel. I think the death of his father coinciding with a terribly lethargic Stormers team attack-wise harmed his opportunities but I still don't think he'd ever be a great.
• Gio Aplon - Was actually a fairly regular man in PDV era, but compared to the stalwart that was Percy or the incumbent Willie le Roux he is simply not in the same class. For all his flair it wasn't that prominent.
• Dean Greyling - Actually he is an embarrassment so I'm not concerned.
• Steven Sykes - Here and there but not everywhere.
• Hargreaves - Same as Sykes.
• Franco vd Merwe - Not enough opportunities locally promted him to move for the money I guess.
• Charl McLeod - Hmmm?
• Juandre Kruger - Foreign based player. One mistake this time last year against the All Blacks. Hasn't featured since.
• Johan Goosen - in place of Jantjies.
• Arno Botha - Had a storming season, one appearance and an injury and off the radar.
• Jacques Potgieter - Severely improved his game in Australia, in contrast to Brussouw.
• Andries Bekker - Injuries and a bad little scandal off the field has harmed his chances coupled with his Japanese involvement.

More locks apart from the 4 mentioned above? (Oh and Jacques Potgieter is also a semi-lock).

• Lewies - An option for the future.
• PSdT - A potential great.
• Flip vd Merwe - Injured or something?
• Lood de Jager - Good backup for Etzebeth.
• Matfield - Proven
• Bakkies - Proven
• Etzebeth - One of the best when he's on form.

Then there are many many more players in Europe still apart from the ones featuring in the Bok squad on a regular basis. Schalk Brits is 3rd choice for the Boks while many would love to have someone of his calibre.

We have enough "decent" players, what we need are more "exceptional" players that are the best in the world in their position and that's why so many are not featuring or feature for very brief periods only.

In addition, culture probably plays a bigger role than we may be aware of which may explain why some players just can't crack the nod to Bok level.

After the games seen in 2014 and taking the two years prior to that into account I think we can say:

• Probably best number 2 in the world, probably 2nd best number 2 in the world and another in the top 5 going by his reputation up North.
• At least the 2nd best number 4 lock in the world. (Although recent form eludes what we've come to known from the man)
• At least the 2nd best number 8 in the world currently.
• Maybe not first or 2nd best but right amongst them at #12 with our captain.
• One of four or five equally impressive #15s in Willie le Roux. The others being Ben Smith (also a winger), Israel Dagg, Israel Folau and Leigh Halfpenny.

Again, we need people who are indisputably the best or very very close to being the best in the world in their respective positions. Can't compare Carr to McCaw, but Marcel Coetzee is fast heading in the right direction. Louw is not only a great poacher, lineout option and a good ball carrier but also captain material. Alberts is the biggest man of his position in the world - OK, because everyone bar SA and France have the flanks reversed, but still.

Who replaces Alberts? Colossals such as Coetzee and Burger.

What about #9?

• FdP, on his day, is still capable of giving a vintage "best in the world" performance, but his time is limited.
• Ruan Pienaar - Highly rated up North. Not so much down South.
• Hougaard - Nippy, not the greatest kicker but strong on defense. His speed aids him a lot.
• Reinach - Somewhat similar to Hougaard.

But at #13 we have an issue:

• JP Pietersen, not bad, not great. Not traditionally a #13 but that's his new position.
• Serfontein - Even the Bok management admit he's actually playing more at 12 although his jersey reads 13.
• JJ Engelbrecht - Fast but very weak defense, not traditionally a 13.
• Paul Jordaan - Young, needs a chance I'd say.
• Sithole - Possibly something there but also young.
• Kriel brothers - One is 12 and the other 13 for the junior boks this year and now for the Bulls. There's a possibility there of something good at least.
• Juan de Jongh - Possibly underrated by most, including myself. Also aging like JDV.
• Jacques Fourie - Great when he's fit and conditioned but hasn't featured much. Too much Japan for him but at R19m per annum I don't blame him for heading there.

Let's assume JDV is injured and Serfontein is suspended for 2 or 3 weeks during RWC. We'd have Pietersen and J Fourie at 13 and.... Lambie or Pollard at 12? Oh yeah, de Allende is also in the running. Much better 12 than 13 in my opinion.

Actually if all of these players play to their potential then this is quite an imposing piece of backline:

9 - Hougaard
10 - Lambie
12 - Pollard (Still, I'd rather he mostly plays 10)
13 - J Fourie

That's that from me.

 

[boyo]

IIRC Josh Strauss is going pretty well at Glasgow, so much so he's been named MotM a few times.

 

[Blue]

That must be the record longest post on this board Good insights though. Pretty much agree. Danile was shooting the lights out when he got picked. He was awful in test rugby. Living proof that Super Rugby form means diddly squat.

Strauss is gunning to play for Scotland and probably will.

I think the Bok management will change their tune on Serfontein now. He played like a 13 at 13. Not the finished articles but coming on in leaps and bounds.

I am over Fourie. I think he was average for the Boks last year. We only need him if all the other options are broken.

With all due respect I hope we never see that backline of yours unless it's a minnow test.

 

[Blue]

Now you try to put words in my mouth. My question to you Brute folks is, how can you write a player off if he havent been tested on test level?

You can't test everyone.

Sometimes you just can't picture a guy making the step up, and sometimes you can.

Pollard - everyone could see he has the goods.

Carr - most of us can't see it.

Other examples for me include Callie Visagie. What was Meyer thinking?

Like I said, I hope for him I am wrong and you are right but I just don't see it.

PS It is NOT a Bulls vs WP thing.

 

[PaarlBok]

For the afrikaans speakers special one about Duanne "Yster" Vermeulen.

http://www.netwerk24.com/stemme/2014-10-12-hanlie-gesels-met-duane-vermeulen

 

[Dewald Nel]

For the afrikaans speakers special one about Duanne "Yster" Vermeulen.

http://www.netwerk24.com/stemme/2014-10-12-hanlie-gesels-met-duane-vermeulen

Another overrated WP player.

Kidding. A monster, and a certain IRB world player of the year candidate. Went to school with him, and he was very skinny back then, never thought he'd become such a beast. Was always hyperactive though, and you can see it in his play. Just never stops going.

 

[PaarlBok]

Another overrated WP player.

Kidding. A monster, and a certain IRB world player of the year candidate. Went to school with him, and he was very skinny back then, never thought he'd become such a beast. Was always hyperactive though, and you can see it in his play. Just never stops going.

Dont look like enjoy the "spoeg en plak" bit of Middelburg HTS? Understand he was at UJ after school and never got a dig in.

 

[Dewald Nel]

Dont look like enjoy the "spoeg en plak" bit of Middelburg HTS? Understand he was at UJ after school and never got a dig in.

Not sure what the reference is to HTS Middelburg(we were in Nelspruit), but class was never a sportsman's dream at school. Sitting outside was always more fun.

He played a few games for the Pumas after school, and then went for trials at the Free State when Rassie was still coach, apparently so impressive that Rassie signed him up immediately.

Who knows, if it wasn't for those trials, we would never have seen him in a Bok jersey.

 

[Blue]

I think that's the first time I have ever seen footage of Duane smiling.

He is fast becoming my favourite bok and I reckon before long he will be my Bok of all time.

Just leaves nothing out there. And then he is so skilled. A player that the opposition genuinely fear.