^^^ Just don't like being wrong, or having incorrect advice/information attributed to me!
Sydney Junior Rugby Union - 2013
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
- Start date
- Status
From another thread, but probably should be copied to here
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
Some great work, a Premier club developing and nuturing thier young talent.
http://www.manlyrugby.com.au/news-m...demy-xv-vs-teh-might-of-nz-south-island-rugby
http://www.manlyrugby.com.au/news-m...demy-xv-vs-teh-might-of-nz-south-island-rugby
According to Buddha, there are 390 teams playing from Under 10's to Opens in the Juniors this year.
327 teams play on Sunday, 20 teams play on Saturday, and 33 Teams play on Friday night.
Opens, 13 Teams, all play Sunday: 5 x A grade, 8 x B grade
U16, 21 teams, all play Sunday: 8 x A grade, 6 x B Grade, 7 x C grade
U15, 34 teams, Sunday = 9 x A, 8 x B, 12 x C; Friday 5 teams
U14, 39 teams, all play Sunday: 10 x A, 7 x B, 10 x C, 6 x D, 6 x E
U13, 49 teams, Sunday = 10 x A, 8 x B, 8 x C, 10 x D, 10 x E; Saturday = 3 teams
U12 62 teams, Sunday = 10 x A, 8 x B, 10 x C, 10 x D, 10 x E, 12 x F; Friday = 8 teams
U11, 81 teams, Sunday = 8 x A, 8 x B, 10 x C, 10 x D, 10 x E, 8 x F, 8 x G; Saturday = 7 teams; Friday = 11 teams
U10, 87 teams, Sunday = 8 x A, 8 x B, 12 x C, 12 x D, 12 x E, 8 x F, 8 x G; Saturday = 10 teams, Friday = 9 teams
Significant drop off in numbers between U12 and U13 - the High School effect, U15 - U16 = the puberty effect, U16 - Opens = The 1st XV effect, and "didn't get picked up for JGS therefore my rugby career is over" effect.
Obviously as the kids get older the ability for many to play two games on a weekend diminishes as the footy is more physical.
Many kids in Year 12 decide to concentrate on their studies, and time consuming club sporting activities are dropped.
The numbers seem comparable to previous years. I'll have a go at digging up some previous years numbers for comparison.
It is worrying the lack of numbers in the Saturday competition, (20 teams in U10, U11 and a massive 3 team U13 competition). This traditionally catered to the boys in the West and South, particularly the dual coders who had Loig committments on Sundays.
327 teams play on Sunday, 20 teams play on Saturday, and 33 Teams play on Friday night.
Opens, 13 Teams, all play Sunday: 5 x A grade, 8 x B grade
U16, 21 teams, all play Sunday: 8 x A grade, 6 x B Grade, 7 x C grade
U15, 34 teams, Sunday = 9 x A, 8 x B, 12 x C; Friday 5 teams
U14, 39 teams, all play Sunday: 10 x A, 7 x B, 10 x C, 6 x D, 6 x E
U13, 49 teams, Sunday = 10 x A, 8 x B, 8 x C, 10 x D, 10 x E; Saturday = 3 teams
U12 62 teams, Sunday = 10 x A, 8 x B, 10 x C, 10 x D, 10 x E, 12 x F; Friday = 8 teams
U11, 81 teams, Sunday = 8 x A, 8 x B, 10 x C, 10 x D, 10 x E, 8 x F, 8 x G; Saturday = 7 teams; Friday = 11 teams
U10, 87 teams, Sunday = 8 x A, 8 x B, 12 x C, 12 x D, 12 x E, 8 x F, 8 x G; Saturday = 10 teams, Friday = 9 teams
Significant drop off in numbers between U12 and U13 - the High School effect, U15 - U16 = the puberty effect, U16 - Opens = The 1st XV effect, and "didn't get picked up for JGS therefore my rugby career is over" effect.
Obviously as the kids get older the ability for many to play two games on a weekend diminishes as the footy is more physical.
Many kids in Year 12 decide to concentrate on their studies, and time consuming club sporting activities are dropped.
The numbers seem comparable to previous years. I'll have a go at digging up some previous years numbers for comparison.
It is worrying the lack of numbers in the Saturday competition, (20 teams in U10, U11 and a massive 3 team U13 competition). This traditionally catered to the boys in the West and South, particularly the dual coders who had Loig committments on Sundays.
A little easier than expected.
Using figures from the 2012 Sydney Juniors Annual report (available off their web site).
Note that they mention a Friday night competition in 2012 but do not give any breakdown of the teams in that competition.
For comparison purposes, I have summariesd the numbers of teams into Sunday and Non Sunday competitions below.
Under 10
Not Sunday - 2011 = 22, 2012 = 17, 2013 = 19
Sunday - 2011 = 56, 2012 = 65, 2013 = 68
Total - 2011 = 78, 2012 = 82, 2013 = 87
Under 11
Not Sunday - 2011 = 9, 2012 = 16, 2013 = 18
Sunday - 2011 = 61, 2012 = 63, 2013 = 63
Total - 2011 = 70, 2012 = 79, 2013 = 81
Under 12
Not Sunday - 2011 = 5, 2012 = 17, 2013 = 8
Sunday - 2011 = 42, 2012 = 57, 2013 = 54
Total - 2011 = 47, 2012 = 74, 2013 = 62
Under 13
Not Sunday - 2011 = 6, 2012 = 11, 2013 = 3
Sunday - 2011 = 49, 2012 = 42, 2013 = 46
Total - 2011 = 55, 2012 = 53, 2013 = 49
Under 14
Not Sunday - 2011 = 7, 2012 = 9, 2013 = 0
Sunday - 2011 = 38, 2012 = 39, 2013 = 39
Total - 2011 = 45, 2012 = 48, 2013 = 39
Under 15
Not Sunday - 2011 = 2, 2012 = 4, 2013 = 5
Sunday - 2011 = 32, 2012 = 35, 2013 = 39
Total - 2011 = 34, 2012 = 39, 2013 = 44
Under 16
Not Sunday - 2011 = 3, 2012 = 7, 2013 = 0
Sunday - 2011 = 24, 2012 = 24, 2013 = 21
Total - 2011 = 27, 2012 = 31, 2013 = 13
Open
Not Sunday - 2011 = 1, 2012 = 6, 2013 = 0
Sunday - 2011 = 12, 2012 = 22, 2013 = 13
Total - 2011 = 13, 2012 = 28, 2013 = 13
All Grades (U10 - Open)
Not Sunday - 2011 = 55, 2012 = 87, 2013 = 53
Sunday - 2011 = 314, 2012 = 347, 2013 = 343
Total - 2011 = 369, 2012 = 434, 2013 = 396
Summary:
Numbers are down on last year but up on previous years overall.
Some age groups and geographic areas should be of concern.
Comment/Hobby Horses:
Under 16
How can Sydney Juniors justify a seat at the Under 16 National Competition with 13 teams to choose from?
Is it time for NSW 1, NSW 2 and Combined States?
Get rid of the opportunity for private school kids that do not play in the village club competitions but are magically eligible due to a loophole to turn up at Juniors State champs to get two selection chances in front of the Selectors. To earn two bites at the cherry in front of the selectors, play BOTH Club and School. This will lift the overall standard of club footy, and the numbers participating.
With only 8 U16 teams in A grade, the State Championships are on nearly every weekend in this grade, and you would have to be unlucky to miss out on a gig in one of the 3 Zone squads of 23 and Barbarians squad for the Regional Carnival (If they intend to do things as they have always done).
Under 17
The SJRU Under 17 selection will be an interesting one. This feeds into the NSW JRU U17 team for the AJRU National U17 championship.
13 teams in the Open (under 18) grade to choose from, with some of those players being Under 18 and therefore ineligible for U17 selection.
The Juniors Pathway to Gold looks to be like a walking track through the Blue Mountains National Park as opposed to the Yellow Brick Road from the Wizard of Oz.
How many of our younger athletes have abandoned the Juniors competition for Colts? There are quite a number that I know of who are eligible to play U17 and U18 juniors who have made the early step up to Colts. Take a quick scan through the team lists published in Rugby News ($5.00 at your local Shute Sheild oval on Saturdays), or on the NSW RU web site. This exodus of talent is a vote of no confidence in the Juniors Village club model from the players (and parents) and should be looked at seriously by the games administrators.
We do not have sufficient volunteer administrative talent, and resources in Heavensgame grass roots to support inefficient and Quixotic WII-FM practices.
Time to wake up and get smart.
Using figures from the 2012 Sydney Juniors Annual report (available off their web site).
Note that they mention a Friday night competition in 2012 but do not give any breakdown of the teams in that competition.
For comparison purposes, I have summariesd the numbers of teams into Sunday and Non Sunday competitions below.
Under 10
Not Sunday - 2011 = 22, 2012 = 17, 2013 = 19
Sunday - 2011 = 56, 2012 = 65, 2013 = 68
Total - 2011 = 78, 2012 = 82, 2013 = 87
Under 11
Not Sunday - 2011 = 9, 2012 = 16, 2013 = 18
Sunday - 2011 = 61, 2012 = 63, 2013 = 63
Total - 2011 = 70, 2012 = 79, 2013 = 81
Under 12
Not Sunday - 2011 = 5, 2012 = 17, 2013 = 8
Sunday - 2011 = 42, 2012 = 57, 2013 = 54
Total - 2011 = 47, 2012 = 74, 2013 = 62
Under 13
Not Sunday - 2011 = 6, 2012 = 11, 2013 = 3
Sunday - 2011 = 49, 2012 = 42, 2013 = 46
Total - 2011 = 55, 2012 = 53, 2013 = 49
Under 14
Not Sunday - 2011 = 7, 2012 = 9, 2013 = 0
Sunday - 2011 = 38, 2012 = 39, 2013 = 39
Total - 2011 = 45, 2012 = 48, 2013 = 39
Under 15
Not Sunday - 2011 = 2, 2012 = 4, 2013 = 5
Sunday - 2011 = 32, 2012 = 35, 2013 = 39
Total - 2011 = 34, 2012 = 39, 2013 = 44
Under 16
Not Sunday - 2011 = 3, 2012 = 7, 2013 = 0
Sunday - 2011 = 24, 2012 = 24, 2013 = 21
Total - 2011 = 27, 2012 = 31, 2013 = 13
Open
Not Sunday - 2011 = 1, 2012 = 6, 2013 = 0
Sunday - 2011 = 12, 2012 = 22, 2013 = 13
Total - 2011 = 13, 2012 = 28, 2013 = 13
All Grades (U10 - Open)
Not Sunday - 2011 = 55, 2012 = 87, 2013 = 53
Sunday - 2011 = 314, 2012 = 347, 2013 = 343
Total - 2011 = 369, 2012 = 434, 2013 = 396
Summary:
Numbers are down on last year but up on previous years overall.
Some age groups and geographic areas should be of concern.
Comment/Hobby Horses:
Under 16
How can Sydney Juniors justify a seat at the Under 16 National Competition with 13 teams to choose from?
Is it time for NSW 1, NSW 2 and Combined States?
Get rid of the opportunity for private school kids that do not play in the village club competitions but are magically eligible due to a loophole to turn up at Juniors State champs to get two selection chances in front of the Selectors. To earn two bites at the cherry in front of the selectors, play BOTH Club and School. This will lift the overall standard of club footy, and the numbers participating.
With only 8 U16 teams in A grade, the State Championships are on nearly every weekend in this grade, and you would have to be unlucky to miss out on a gig in one of the 3 Zone squads of 23 and Barbarians squad for the Regional Carnival (If they intend to do things as they have always done).
Under 17
The SJRU Under 17 selection will be an interesting one. This feeds into the NSW JRU U17 team for the AJRU National U17 championship.
13 teams in the Open (under 18) grade to choose from, with some of those players being Under 18 and therefore ineligible for U17 selection.
The Juniors Pathway to Gold looks to be like a walking track through the Blue Mountains National Park as opposed to the Yellow Brick Road from the Wizard of Oz.
How many of our younger athletes have abandoned the Juniors competition for Colts? There are quite a number that I know of who are eligible to play U17 and U18 juniors who have made the early step up to Colts. Take a quick scan through the team lists published in Rugby News ($5.00 at your local Shute Sheild oval on Saturdays), or on the NSW RU web site. This exodus of talent is a vote of no confidence in the Juniors Village club model from the players (and parents) and should be looked at seriously by the games administrators.
We do not have sufficient volunteer administrative talent, and resources in Heavensgame grass roots to support inefficient and Quixotic WII-FM practices.
Time to wake up and get smart.
sarcophilus
Charlie Fox (21)
Thanks HJ ^^
"We do not have sufficient volunteer administrative talent, and resources in Heavensgame grass roots to support inefficient and Quixotic WII-FM practices."
It was just Maggie "there is no such thing a Society" Thatcher that died recently, I believe WIIFM will live a long and prosperous life.
"We do not have sufficient volunteer administrative talent, and resources in Heavensgame grass roots to support inefficient and Quixotic WII-FM practices."
It was just Maggie "there is no such thing a Society" Thatcher that died recently, I believe WIIFM will live a long and prosperous life.
sarcophilus
Charlie Fox (21)
NSW 1 and NSW2 would be great as it will mean all players will have two bites at the cherry
Private school rep platers will not have to play for 4 teams at once to consolidate their selection chances,
16 year olds should have time for school work in amongst the footy
growing bodies...and as we are becoming more aware Brains, should have repair time instead of three games a week
the clubies sorry the others may as well give up
Private school rep platers will not have to play for 4 teams at once to consolidate their selection chances,
16 year olds should have time for school work in amongst the footy
growing bodies...and as we are becoming more aware Brains, should have repair time instead of three games a week
- this will also reduce the risk maybe of 3rd 4th ranked players missing out on being seen because they are only exposed through one or the other stream
- it may increase the competition for the top 6 places
the
sarcophilus
Charlie Fox (21)
is "quixotic WIIFM" an oxymoron?
The activities pursued can be quixotic in nature but are undertaken with all the best of intentions of doing good for the community.
Activities can not only be quixotic (impractical, pointless etc) endeavours but expressly undertaken for the purpose of self gratification and glorification (WIIFM).
I don't see any internal contradictions in "quixotic WIIFM".
Another interpretation of oxymoron is someone who uses oxygen moronically, ie an oxygen thief who's every breath is depriving someone more deserving individual of oxygen. There are some of these in rugby circles, and they are 100% WIIFM.
Activities can not only be quixotic (impractical, pointless etc) endeavours but expressly undertaken for the purpose of self gratification and glorification (WIIFM).
I don't see any internal contradictions in "quixotic WIIFM".
Another interpretation of oxymoron is someone who uses oxygen moronically, ie an oxygen thief who's every breath is depriving someone more deserving individual of oxygen. There are some of these in rugby circles, and they are 100% WIIFM.
Rugby Ref
Herbert Moran (7)
HJ - thank you for the analysis, very informative.
I ref the SJRU Sunday Comp and the perception is that the teams are down, especially in the older age groups - but it appears this is not the case.
I also used to do the Saturday MWZ comp, and it is a real shame these teams opted for the Sunday comp.
I ref the SJRU Sunday Comp and the perception is that the teams are down, especially in the older age groups - but it appears this is not the case.
I also used to do the Saturday MWZ comp, and it is a real shame these teams opted for the Sunday comp.
sarcophilus
Charlie Fox (21)
can you expand on this assertion as apparently vision isn't always what it is perceived to be or the apparent match with your perception doesn't exist
Rugby Ref
Herbert Moran (7)
I receive the ref appointments weekly - we see what games we have been assigned to and see what other games are available. It appears the older age groups team numbers are down - also the weekly ref 'chat-on-the-grapevine' appears to concur my perception; refs are also disussing the teams that are fielding low numbers on the paddok, as well forfeits they are experiencing.
rip
Allen Oxlade (6)
Your observations are quite correct. In the Sunday Under 16 age group the number of player attending games is very low, the reason is that the clubs were relying on GPS boys who registered with the club to play but so far only a handful bothered toshow upasthey know they willbe picked for the state championships without playing any club games The ones that have either hope to move to a new district club so they are seen to be competive
^^^ For several years now, a lot of the boys in the State Champs from city district teams have not played any Under 16 Village club games.
There is a loophole in the eligibility criteria that allows this to happen.
The District club coaches and parents are happy to exploit the loophole because it is all about winning. Having "top notch" GPS/CAS/ISA players in their squads (regardless of whether they are actually playing in the very competition that they are representing) increases their chances of winning games. The parents of the ghost players are happy because their kids get two chances to impress selectors for National U16's.
There is a loophole in the eligibility criteria that allows this to happen.
The District club coaches and parents are happy to exploit the loophole because it is all about winning. Having "top notch" GPS/CAS/ISA players in their squads (regardless of whether they are actually playing in the very competition that they are representing) increases their chances of winning games. The parents of the ghost players are happy because their kids get two chances to impress selectors for National U16's.
CTPE
Nev Cottrell (35)
PLAYER QUALIFICATION
A player is qualified to compete in the JSC if:
I
a.
He/She has played in 2013 at least 4 club competition matches for a club or country town,within the Sydney District/ Country Zone he/she is seeking to play for (U10s to U15s).
b.
In U16 age group, he has played at least 4 club competition matches for a junior club or country town
within the Sydney District/ Country Zone he/she is seeking to play for in 2012 or 2013
.c.
In U17 age group, he has played at least 4 club competition matches for a junior club or country town within the Sydney District/ Country Zone he/she is seeking to play for in 2012 or 2013
II
Each participant in the JSC must be a registered club player and must have completed the
requirements of ARU registration in 2013 with a club, country town, Sydney District or Country
So for U16s and U17s play either 4 games the year before or 4 this year or a combination of games totaling four in 2012 and 2013 and you're eligible to represent your senior club at junior level in 2013 - is that the gist of it??
That is the gist of it.
How even this gets rorted is if there is a bye, washout, or a forfeit against then these games count as games played. Fairly easy to "play" 4 qualifying games over two years under these circumstances.
Technically a kid can play state champs in Under 15, Under 16 and Under 17's on the back of playing one game in Under 15's, one bye game, two washouts, nothing at all in Under 16's, and two washouts a Bye and a forfeit against them in the Under 17's.
How even this gets rorted is if there is a bye, washout, or a forfeit against then these games count as games played. Fairly easy to "play" 4 qualifying games over two years under these circumstances.
Technically a kid can play state champs in Under 15, Under 16 and Under 17's on the back of playing one game in Under 15's, one bye game, two washouts, nothing at all in Under 16's, and two washouts a Bye and a forfeit against them in the Under 17's.
Brainstrust
Watty Friend (18)
Hugh, I'm new to this so bear with me..I've watched this thread with interest. I think the reality is that while the eligibility dispensation does allow some potetntial rorting (like to know what the numbers are of those boys), the very vast majority of players in the 16's and 17's in district rep, have been players that have contributed to club and rep rugby for many years, many from the mini's age group. Given the demands of training and physicality in schools under 16's comp and for some boys playing opens, they just cant be expected to commit to a club season. I'm sure the allowance is there to enable to the strongest players to in some way stay in the club pathway via district representation..Given the ARU commit a good deal of funding to National U16's tournament, I would imagine that they want to see as many of the best players competing through the different pathways, rather than sitting on the sidelines??
http://www.manlyrugby.com.au/news-m...724-courageous-effort-from-marlins-academy-xv
I have heard of a Marlins Academy, a Wicks Academy, and a Pirates Academy running over the summer and preseason.
Along with the Junior Gold and National Gold Squad, there is a fair bit of footy development going on.
Come the Season, what happens? Look at the team numbers for the SJRU Opens for your answer.
Rather than let clubs stumble on the answer by accident, how about some leadership and coordination (and assistance where necessary to establish such) but is the answer to ditch the June long weekend State champs for U16 and U18's, and run them earlier almost in competition with SG Ball and H Matthews to take advantage of the various academy programmes.
Bring colts, juniors, schools and Gold squads together for the U16 and U18 Easter State Champs as the culmination of the Pre-season/summer season development. If the AAGPS are uninterested because of athletics and rowing, then leave them out, but I'd reckon they'd be keen as it would only involve 1st XV and 16A's. Most of these are undergoing preseason work either through School, academy or gold squad anyway.
I have heard of a Marlins Academy, a Wicks Academy, and a Pirates Academy running over the summer and preseason.
Along with the Junior Gold and National Gold Squad, there is a fair bit of footy development going on.
Come the Season, what happens? Look at the team numbers for the SJRU Opens for your answer.
Rather than let clubs stumble on the answer by accident, how about some leadership and coordination (and assistance where necessary to establish such) but is the answer to ditch the June long weekend State champs for U16 and U18's, and run them earlier almost in competition with SG Ball and H Matthews to take advantage of the various academy programmes.
Bring colts, juniors, schools and Gold squads together for the U16 and U18 Easter State Champs as the culmination of the Pre-season/summer season development. If the AAGPS are uninterested because of athletics and rowing, then leave them out, but I'd reckon they'd be keen as it would only involve 1st XV and 16A's. Most of these are undergoing preseason work either through School, academy or gold squad anyway.
- Status