The road home - Super rugby 2014

[Shiggins]

This was the source of their position in Super rugby. They got very few bonus points. If they had played looser, trying to get more bonus points, they would probably have had more losses. The Hurricanes missed the finals too and they were the mirror image of the Force. Lots of bonus points from playing an expansive game but less wins.

The Force still had an excellent season!

Yeh. Really proud of the force. Just hurts to see then finish 8th on the ladder then they won more games then the 3 kiwi teams above them. The bonus point system must of been thought up of by a kiwi. They are usually try fest games that go down to the wire.

 

[qwerty51]

There's an argument the bonus point system is unfair. The Highlanders for example play under a roof and so half their games are guaranteed to be dry and easier for tryscoring. Cities have differing rain climates.

That home game the Force played the Bulls in was never going to net 4 tries no matter how good or intent there was from the Force. The Highlanders beat the Bullls with a bonus point at home.

I think the French system is fairer and would like it adopted.

 

[terry j]

what IS the french system? In what ways would it be an improvement?

I like the idea that (often) there are still things to play for even if you know you probably won't win. The bonus points system gives you that sometimes. I'd hate to see that go.

 

[qwerty51]

Offensive bonus point for scoring 3 or more tries than the opposition.

 

[Pfitzy]

Yeh. Really proud of the force. Just hurts to see then finish 8th on the ladder then they won more games then the 3 kiwi teams above them. The bonus point system must of been thought up of by a kiwi. They are usually try fest games that go down to the wire.

Actually the Kiwis have bitched about it since inception due to the Brumbies getting in the finals a couple of years only due to bonus points, but less wins.

The Chiefs had less losses than the Force, so they deserve to be higher.

But ultimately, everyone knows the rules of the competition. If your plan is to grind out wins, then you'd better grind them out. For years the Highlanders had to play in the coldest, wettest conditions in the competition and they couldn't prosper just kicking penalty goals.

We can't all have a roof over our heads though, and we can't pick the weather we want.

 

[badabing59]

If you look at the final points table without bonus points, Force would be in at spot #5 or 6. (It is a very simplistic way of looking at it, but adds a little support to the 'why have bp at all' argument)

Tahs 48
Cru 44
Sha 44
Bru 40
Chi 36
For 36

The order of other teams pretty much stays the same. So in the top six we see one change, the Force deservedly in for having more wins over the landers and Hurries.
They got rid of the bye points this year, so again, do we need bonus points at all? Will teams play less committed rugby as they know there is no extra point available for four tries? Will a losing team simply give up knowing they can't get a losing bonus point.
My god-southern hemisphere rugby could morph into northern hemisphere dross. Heaven forbid.
My vote is to keep the 4 try bonus, but get rid of the losing bp.

 

[Novocastrian]

Bonus points should be used as a tie breaker - have 'normal' points from wins/draws as the first step, number of wins as the second, and only then bring bp into it. In that system the Force move into 5th ahead of the Chiefs as they won more games.

 

[Lee Grant]

Offensive bonus point for scoring 3 or more tries than the opposition.

This is correct. The Top 14 system is better than the bonus point system used in Super Rugby in my opinion because it has a dividend for defence.

In Super Rugby, Team A can get five table points for scoring six tries (for example) and winning. The side they beat, Team B, can gain two table points for scoring four tries and losing by seven points or fewer.

In this scenario in the Top 14 (or Pro D2) Team A would get just four table points for winning. The losers would get nothing. There are no points for losing by seven of fewer.

In order to win a Bonus Point, Team A (who scored six tries) has to limit team B to three tries (i.e. three fewer than them).

Every now and then you see a Top 14 team which has a big lead pissing themselves because their opponents have scored another try and they have lost that three-try differential for the match.

So you may see a team that is 25 points ahead with ten minutes to go throwing everything at the other team to get another try to re-establish the three try differential.

Most of the time though you see teams working hard during the game to stop the tries so the differential problem doesn't happen.

You can see the point of the four-try bonus points because it encourages teams to keep attempting to score tries even though the game is lost.

But there is nothing more horrible than some of the games the Chiefs have played in the RSA over recent years where teams had eight tries (or so) scored against them yet still got a bonus point—or even two.

 

[gel]

Gees, my original analysis was wildly incorrect.

Still, I am glad I did it as it is a really good exercise.

Next year, I'm going to do it again - and see who's season I can derail

 

[Lindommer]

To offer an alternative experience to LG's, I reckon there's some merit in the losing bonus point. I well recall the Tahs/Clan match at the SFS in 1996 when the Clan were 11 points down at the 80 minute mark as they were attacking the Tahs' line. The boys from Dunedin, who were obviously going to lose, kept the ball alive for God knows how many phases and eventually scored a try some two minutes after the siren. It was great theatre. On another note, a couple more losing bonus points would've been worth gold to the Force this year.

The prospect of losing bonus points gives the trailing team a shitload of incentive late in the game. I vote for keeping it.

 

[BDA]

Looking at the Super rugby ladder and the performances over the last few weeks, I don't believe the Highlanders are worthy of their play in the final 6.

The Hurricanes (who won the same amount of games, scored more points and conceded fewer) and the Force (who won more games) are both more deserving IMHO. But I suppose that is the way the cookie crumbles.

Otherwise a very strong final 6. The Brumbies and the Chiefs definitely have the ability to upset the applecart.

A likely Tahs v Brumbies next week is going to be huge and there's no way I would rule out a brumbies win.

 

[Braveheart81]

There's always going to be minor discrepancies where the final table doesn't exactly match the order of the best teams on a subjective basis.

In the Hurricanes last game they lost by 8 points and had a penalty on full time that would have given them a shot at goal from 40 odd metres out about 15m in from touch.

They instead took a quick tap and went for a try.

If they'd kicked the goal then they'd have beaten the Highlanders into the finals.

The Force got dusted up at home by the Blues who finished below them. That was where they missed the finals.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I said the other day that the existing system is fine and I still think it is, but that French variation is intriguing. Could be worth a shot in the NRC perhaps?

There are always going to be hard luck stories when it comes to getting in the finals and this year it's my boys. It does seem a bit shit that a team with more wins doesn't get through though.

This is why it's the toughest comp in the world I guess. Six teams out of 15 must be just about the lowest of any major competition I can think of.

 

[Braveheart81]

When comparing the French try differential bonus point or the Super Rugby try scoring bonus point you need to decide what it is exactly that you're trying to reward.

The French system is rewarding a flogging whereas the Super Rugby one is rewarding attacking intent by both teams.

I'm not convinced that I don't prefer rewarding the attacking intent moreso than just flogging the opposition. I guess the question comes down to whether scoring 4 tries to 2 makes you more deserving of a bonus point than scoring 3 tries to nil?

It would be interesting to go through the 2014 Super Rugby table and apply the French bonus point system and see what happens.

 

[qwerty51]

IMO the Highlanders are advantaged by playing every home game under a roof. It gives you more opportunity for more competition points.

 

[Lindommer]

Makes up for all those years the Clan had by far the worst playing conditions.

While we're on the subject of enclosed stadiums the Ponies should get cracking and build one.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

The whole competitions isn't an even playing field, not sure why there is suddenly all this bitching about how the points scoring works.

Teams dont' play all the other teams, all teams plays some teams twice, others once and others none at all. Nobody has the same conditions, the prevailing weather in Sydney, Perth & South Africa is much more conducive to scoring 4 tries than that in NZ & the SA travel factor is undoubtedly harder than NZ/Aus - although having said that I'm not sure how many times they have to play at home one week, fly 3.5 hours and 2 time zones for the next match then back home next week.

It's very easy to argue the Force got the shaft as they won 9 games. However, nothing changed mid season, nothing was different for them than others (excepting the above)...Do I feel sorry for them? No. They played the last team twice, the 3rd last team twice, and when they pressure came on in the last 4 weeks, they got thrashed 3 out of 4 games.

But a turning point season for Force? I think so. Lots of heart.

 

[mst]

When comparing the French try differential bonus point or the Super Rugby try scoring bonus point you need to decide what it is exactly that you're trying to reward.

The French system is rewarding a flogging whereas the Super Rugby one is rewarding attacking intent by both teams.

I'm not convinced that I don't prefer rewarding the attacking intent moreso than just flogging the opposition. I guess the question comes down to whether scoring 4 tries to 2 makes you more deserving of a bonus point than scoring 3 tries to nil?

It would be interesting to go through the 2014 Super Rugby table and apply the French bonus point system and see what happens.

SHAZAM! So based on the Top 14 system: (soup points / Top 14 points)

Tahs 58 / 57
Cru 51 /48
Sha 50 /48
Bru 45 /45
Chi 44 /41
Landers 42 /37
Canes 41 /39
For 40 /38

IMHO 2 scenarios I would like toss in to consider are wins to 5pts and all home 4 try bonus points only worth 0.5 (half a point) or make all bonus points against teams in your conference worth half.

 

[Braveheart81]

Nice work, but how did the Highlanders get so many more points under the French system? Surely that is a mistake.

I guess it shows that not much really changes except the Chiefs would have lost points for those high scoring draws in South Africa.

 

[mst]

Nice work, but how did the Highlanders get so many more points under the French system? Surely that is a mistake.

I guess it shows that not much really changes except the Chiefs would have lost points for those high scoring draws in South Africa.

Actually, the Landers should be 38 (my bad), all bar one are defensive points - Kings of the close loss! Tah's get 8 offensive with the Brumbies and Canes the next two with 4 offensive. At the other end of the scale the Tah's, Brumbies and Force are shit losers with 1 defensive point each. The rest (except landers) of the teams all had between either 3 or 4.