The success of League players in Rugby Union

[en_force_er]

Sometimes I'm more than happy for the status quo. While its not perfect, it's pretty reasonable.

Then I look at guys like Salesi Ma'afu. He'll never play for Australia again, but he's in really good form for Northampton. Fiji and to a lesser extent Tonga, really need props to be playing at international level. What would be the harm in letting him grab 25 caps for the Flying Fijians?

Ah well. Whatever happens, we will endure.

100%. However, I said the same thing about Radike Samo when he was halfway into that amazing season with the Reds.

He then surprised us at around 36 by, after only getting 4 Wallaby games in his youth as a 2nd rower, playing a world cup as Australia's starting 8.

The moral is, who knows what the fuck will happen.

 

[Pfitzy]

When I lived in Tonga, it was noticeable that the most prevalent jersey that kids wore was black. With a silver fern. That's because that is where the money was.

Similar to the football followers here who support Liverpool or Man U - no connection there, just winningest.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

What would have been the harm in allowing players like Lomu (if he had been able to) to transfer their allegiance back to their place of birth after they had finished their professional careers in a rich country like New Zealand?.

Lomu was born in NZ, went to school in NZ, learnt his footy in NZ, represented NZ at every level from U16 up. Apart from that, I disagree 100%: even the Tongan-born Feketoa is a product of the NZ system,

EDIT: having never represented Tonga at any level to the best of my knowledge. The other non-NZ born current player, Jerome Kaino, is also a product of the NZ system, having moved to NZ with his parents at age 4. Fact is that most of the "Polynesian" AB are no more Polynesian than Whitelock is Irish or McCaw Scots.

FURTHER EDIT: see the article linked by Sully on the NZ Rugby Team Watch thread. Key points being 32/1133 AB born in "The Islands" c.f. 22 in Australia, 18 England/Scotland, 10 Ireland etc etc.

 

[TOCC]

Lomu was born in NZ, went to school in NZ, learnt his footy in NZ, represented NZ at every level from U16 up. Apart from that, I disagree 100%: even the Tongan-born Feketoa is a product of the NZ system,

EDIT: having never represented Tonga at any level to the best of my knowledge. The other non-NZ born current player, Jerome Kaino, is also a product of the NZ system, having moved to NZ with his parents at age 4. Fact is that most of the "Polynesian" AB are no more Polynesian than Whitelock is Irish or McCaw Scots.

FURTHER EDIT: see the article linked by Sully on the NZ Rugby Team Watch thread. Key points being 32/1133 AB born in "The Islands" c.f. 22 in Australia, 18 England/Scotland, 10 Ireland etc etc.

Sitiveni Siviatu is probably the most prolific in recent years, having been recruited to New Zealand on a sporting scholarship in his teenage years, and then later on he represented the Pacific Islands Rugby Union team along with Lauaki before they made their All Black debuts.. It may not have been the NZRU who directly recruited him, but he was recruited to New Zealand by the NZ Rugby System for his sporting ability.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Sitiveni Siviatu is probably the most prolific in recent years, having been recruited to New Zealand on a sporting scholarship in his teenage years, and then later on he represented the Pacific Islands Rugby Union team along with Lauaki before they made their All Black debuts.. It may not have been the NZRU who directly recruited him, but he was recruited to New Zealand by the NZ Rugby System for his sporting ability.

Glad you mentioned Sivi, I'm sure you're aware his scholarship was for soccer & he first played organised rugby in NZ at least partly 'cos it was what his mates were playing? Fact: the only pro-era player to have played serious footy in the country of their birth then move to NZ & become an AB was your very own Steve Devine. Fairly sure you'll find Lauaki was NZ-born as well.

EDIT: I'll stand corrected on that, Tonga-born but arrived in NZ in time to play at least 1st XV there.

You'd think that after 40 years of reading this kind of bollocks it'd be water off a ducks back but in fact it's the opposite, there's simply no excuse for it - any more than labelling Folau, TPN, Sio, the Fai'anga twins etc as Polynesian when they're not.

 

[Omar Comin']

any more than labelling Folau, TPN, Sio, the Fai'anga twins etc as Polynesian when they're not.

You do realise Polynesian is an ethnicity?

All of those guys are Polynesian. I'm sure they would all proudly call themselves Tongan or Samoan Australians (well the Fainga'a brothers are of both Tongan and Aboriginal descent).

Scott Sio's Father David even played for Samoa.

All the guys mentioned have a very strong cultural and family connection with those countries and to say they're not Polynesian, or not Tongan or not Samoan is ridiculous.

There is very obvious economic reasons why thousands of PI's have emigrated to Australia and NZ. It's no different to Algerians in France. Yet those people that are 2nd or 3rd generation are still very much connected to their ancestral home.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

You do realise Polynesian is an ethnicity?

All of those guys are Polynesian. I'm sure they would all proudly call themselves Tongan or Samoan Australians (well the Fainga'a brothers are of both Tongan and Aboriginal descent).

Scott Sio's Father David even played for Samoa.

All the guys mentioned have a very strong cultural and family connection with those countries and to say they're not Polynesian, or not Tongan or not Samoan is ridiculous.

There is very obvious economic reasons why thousands of PI's have emigrated to Australia and NZ. It's no different to Algerians in France. Yet those people that are 2nd or 3rd generation are still very much connected to their ancestral home.

Yes, but no one accuses Australia of strip-mining the PI for talent, do they?

To be fair the NZ media was & to a degree still is culpable for being front & centre when it comes to highlighting the ancestry of certain players. Interestingly we hear very little about the whakapapa of those AB who are of Maori descent.

 

[Omar Comin']

For the record, I would have no problem with players being able to play for a 2nd nation in test rugby so long as there'd been a time period of 3 or 4 years since playing their last test match for the first nation. But only if that eligibility couldn't be gained by 3 year residency.

I think the 3 year residency rule is a joke. It's much more ridiculous to have say Craig Wing playing for Japan than letting someone with two Tongan parents and a Tongan passport, that has one or two caps for Australia or New Zealand, play test rugby for Tonga.

 

[Highlander35]

Got it. So we're morally against Henry Speight playing for Australia.

 

[TOCC]

I dont agree with it, the whole thing is an unfortunate byproduct of professionalism that isn't going to change unless the IRB wants to create new eligibility rules, which would face opposition from nearly all the major tier 1 unions.

I actually read a stat the other day reference the NZ Rugby system, 20% of kiwi Super Rugby players are actually eligible for one of the Pacific Island teams, in the U20's side this figure is almost 50%. Im sure similar statistics are evident in the Australian U20 side.

 

[It is what it is]

U20 in Loig now running at over 70% Pacific Islanders and they will increase their dominance in both rugby codes.
AFL and Soccer are 2 sports which will not dominated by Pac Islanders.

 

[Omar Comin']

Got it. So we're morally against Henry Speight playing for Australia.

I'm happy for the Wallabies to take advantage of the current rules as they are but in essence I don't think Henry Speight should be eligible for Australia. He should be playing for Fiji.

I'd change the residency rule to something like 7 years. At least 5. Or have a more simple citizens only rule like the Olympic games.

 

[Omar Comin']

Interestingly some players will be allowed to switch their rugby allegiance next year in anticipation of the Olympics.

http://ur7s.com/news/ben-ryan-goes-...y-and-just-about-everything-you-need-to-know-

A ripple from this is a window that will also exist next year for players to effectively ‘switch’ countries back to a country they have a passport to.

Ill try to explain this as simply as possible, so:

If you haven’t played for 18 months for one of the “capped” teams in the nation you have already played for, AND hold a passport for another country then you can play in next year’s series for that country. Interestingly, once you make the switch, you are then available to be chosen for the nations XV’s test side too. You cannot switch back.

After this season, the 18 months will go up to 3 years and the switch can only happen in an Olympic qualifying event or the Olympics itself, so if you don’t do it next season then its not again possible until the actual Olympics.

If it I put this into a practical example, I will use Josh Drauniniu – sure you don’t mind Josh! Gets you some airtime!

He played for England 7s in 2011 and hasn’t played for any other national England sides since. He holds a Fijian Passport (as well as a UK one) as was born and raised in Fiji so would be eligible for me to select if I wanted to and he wanted to. He could then play for Fiji at national 15’s level. Let me just make clear that this is just an example and not a clever ploy to lure Josh to back to Fiji! I just know the timings in this example in this and it just illustrates the point and also shows you that players do exist out there in this category.

It would thus be in the interests of Tonga, Fiji and Samoa to get any decent eligible player that last played for another country more than 18 months ago into their 7's team for one leg of the IRB series. It could be a great way to strengthen their 15's team in time for the rugby world cup.

 

[Highlander35]

Armitage brothers playing for France.

 

[Omar Comin']

Armitage brothers playing for France.

If they have French passports then potentially yes.

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm happy for the Wallabies to take advantage of the current rules as they are but in essence I don't think Henry Speight should be eligible for Australia. He should be playing for Fiji.

I'd change the residency rule to something like 7 years. At least 5. Or have a more simple citizens only rule like the Olympic games.

Citizenship doesn't really make it any harder to represent a country. This happens reasonably quickly for athletes looking to migrate.

Olympic rules don't prohibit representing two countries either.

Personally I think the rugby rules represent modern society where young families migrate in more directions and people decide they want to migrate permanently after living somewhere for employment.

What makes someone Australian?

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk

 

[Omar Comin']

Personally I think the rugby rules represent modern society where young families migrate in more directions and people decide they want to migrate permanently after living somewhere for employment.

What makes someone Australian?

The problem is they benefit the rich countries. Do you think Henry Speight would consider himself more Australian than Fijian? If money and professional contracts were no different, and Fiji played in the Rugby Championship each year who do you think he'd want to play for?

I just think it's ridiculous when people (and for that matter the IRB) say you can't allow players to represent more than 1 country in a career because it would somehow make test rugby less legitimate. And meanwhile there's a 3 year residency rule.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Plenty of professional Yachties sail in crews on a boat representing countries they are not a citizen of, or current or past resident of, and return to their "home" countries sailing teams for the Olympic Yachting Competition.

 

[I like to watch]

I think in the cases you mention,they are officially representing a yacht club,not a nation.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Still unhappy at the crap that the NYYC put our early challengers for the America's Cup through, under the "everything must come from the challengers country" rule. Now their campaign to retain the cup was lead by a Kiwi, captained by an Aussie, Tactician was a Pom, Strategist was an Aussie.