The Wallabies Thread

[TOCC]

Do whatever you want, but I will try to look forward and guess what he is trying to do and why he picked who he did because I don't see any of the suggested improves really improving the outcome and they won't be there anyway

Frankly I am far more concerned with our hooker options than who is the back up 10.

Moore's form is really concerning, TPN isn't up to playing long minutes despite him learning over time how to pace himself, he needs another quality unit to share the 2 load because we all know TPN's lineout skills diminish when he starts to blow

Concern over one position doesn't mean you can't be concerned over others as well, if only your objective analysis of hooker was applied to fly-half as well..

Lack of a backup specialist fly-half obviously concerns many of us as evidenced in this forum..

 

[Wilson]

Too much sense there Wilson, and just maybe Lance would show Foley up in contested training, "you know what I mean?".

If he did it'd just see a couple of the players around him elevated to start. Play makers are only as good as their support and all that

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[Brumby Runner]

We might all be disappointed that Higgers hasn't reached his enormous potential at test level, but we still need our best 5 backrowers, that give us the most competitive/balanced side in the test squad and I can't, for the life of me see how he is not in that group. Happy for anyone to name the 5 they think are better. (I don't agree - but would accept the view point that Hooper, Timani, RHP, Fardy & Hardwick/McMahon are better - but I note RHP isn't in the squad anyway.)

Nor is Fardy. So with three out, that leaves a pretty poor looking back row imo.

 

[Strewthcobber]

If Timani is at 8 I would go for someone with a lineout presence. Probably RHP although he may not be fit enough for Cheika just yet. I reckon Higgers at 6 with Timani at 8 would also be balanced alongside Hooper.

Hanigan is not there yet. Ditto for Dempsey. Hardwick is really a 7 or bench option.

I would guess he will go

6.McMahon
7.Hooper
8.Timani

Hardwick on the bench.

Our lineout will be compromised. It was excellent in June.

Thought our lineouts was the reason we lost against Scotland.

Couldn't convert any of the chances close to the line because we couldn't get clean ball to set up a good maul etc.

Arnold was a serial offender and must be the second worst 2m+ lineout target in World Rugby. (Skelton #1)

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[Brumby Runner]

Gel I think there is too much emphasis placed on what position someone players for their soup team and the implication that that must be their best position. Firstly the soup franchises have 35 players on their rosters and have to shuffle them around when there are injuries etc, and secondly it's a different style of game and each coach has a different game plan.

So when selecting players for a certain position, the national coach is going to shortlist based on what he wants out of them and how they fit into the overall plan.

From FP's backline there I'd argue that DHP is the only one that is truly out of position. Having 3 fullbacks as the back 3 is a bit of overkill, 2 is understandable and for the other wing I'd bench DHP for either Naivalu or Speight, a genuine hard running winger.

KOB, I read Gel differently. I think he is wanting players to be identified for their best spots at test level and then to have the Super Rugby sides work with that, not the other way around. And hopefully, that will be the outcome of the national coaching panel on the structure of Aus rugby.

 

[Killer]

I am more confused about having no back up specialist 10 FP. At least one or both of Lance and QC (Quade Cooper) could have, should have, been in the wider squad. Same with Higgers. None of them may have made the final RC squad but they all are deserving of a spot in this wider squad. Coopers runs in June were fine.

McMahon is going offshore although one could argue that Poey is like for like and will slot back in next year. Agree that RHP was worth a look.

Chek is not a straight shooter and ends up confusing the whole situation instead of simply rewarding good form.
My guess re Jono Lance is, he is scared to hurt Quades feelings by dropping him and then including Lance.
He will probably include Lance next time or add him soon?
All that the players want is honesty, same for us for that matter.

 

[Brumby Runner]

What it always is, he wants high tempo direct rugby

Poaching will be less important than counter rucks, cleanouts and dominant tackles

He will want a high workrate with a focus to move the ball to space off fast front foot ball

Defence is the issue, I don't understand the decision to play such a passive defensive line in June. But I could speculate that the team wasn't fit enough to play a rush and high tempo'ish attack

While he is coach, I expect the style to continue


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If cleanouts are important, then it wouldn't seem from the ruck involvements stats published by FF (Folau Fainga'a) that any of the Wallabies' forwards have been following that game plan this year.

The defensive issues are not just this year. They go back to the beginning of Grey's involvement with the Wallabies. Do you not remember the shambles in the eoyt last year when the Wallabies outside player was regularly left defending a two or three man overlap out wide?

I have to disagree. The Cheika game plan is not at all clear, and I doubt that any of the players understand it better than you or me, "you know what I mean?'.

 

[Braveheart81]

KOB, I read Gel differently. I think he is wanting players to be identified for their best spots at test level and then to have the Super Rugby sides work with that, not the other way around. And hopefully, that will be the outcome of the national coaching panel on the structure of Aus rugby.

I don't think it ever will be though.

Super Rugby squads are limited in size and will almost certainly be better served playing their best players "out of position" in order to get them all on the field at once.

Would any players really want to move interstate so they can play a different position in the starting XV compared to staying at home?

 

[Brumby Runner]

If he did it'd just see a couple of the players around him elevated to start. Play makers are only as good as their support and all that

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Like Meakes and Rona? Lance is a very similar player to Foley, but has more pace (witness the almost length of the field intercept try V Tahs) and has a significantly better kicking game. In fact, I really can't think of any one aspect where Foley outshines Lance to the extent one is a lay down misere for the Wallabies and the other can't even land a spot in the train on squad. "You know what I mean?".

 

[Braveheart81]

I think Foley would be quicker than Lance. I also think his passing game is substantially better. His handling is certainly better than Lance.

I would have picked Lance in the squad too but this talk that suddenly he is maybe better than Foley is pretty out there.

Lance's defence and kicking game is definitely better than Foley's.

Lance is also unbelievably injury prone.

 

[Wilson]

Like Meakes and Rona? Lance is a very similar player to Foley, but has more pace (witness the almost length of the field intercept try V Tahs) and has a significantly better kicking game. In fact, I really can't think of any one aspect where Foley outshines Lance to the extent one is a lay down misere for the Wallabies and the other can't even land a spot in the train on squad. "You know what I mean?".

Don't get me wrong, I think Foley is significantly overrated and even if I didn't I love shitting on tahs, nut at the end of the day he's the better fly half. He has the running and support game over lance ( I'm pretty sure he's quicker over 40 yards, that lance try is more about lack of fight from the tahs around him than anything else) and is more 'proven' at test match level.

All that said I really think we've seen Foley's ceiling, and he is still making his decisions at least half a step too early - So any team that runs that old SA defence with a smart wide shooter ala De Villiers is going to take intercepts every day of the week and generally fuck with our shit. We need to be blooding every and any alternative, so that not only do we have a plan for when Foley gets hurt but we actively build options to change our attack mid match.

I mean it's not like the ABs ever swapped Barrett for cruden mid match.. . . . . . .

Weird dot pattern is meant to represent ellipsis.......... .. ... .

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[fatprop]

If cleanouts are important, then it wouldn't seem from the ruck involvements stats published by FF (Folau Fainga'a) that any of the Wallabies' forwards have been following that game plan this year.

The defensive issues are not just this year. They go back to the beginning of Grey's involvement with the Wallabies. Do you not remember the shambles in the eoyt last year when the Wallabies outside player was regularly left defending a two or three man overlap out wide?

I have to disagree. The Cheika game plan is not at all clear, and I doubt that any of the players understand it better than you or me, "you know what I mean?'.

I was writing what I thought the plan was, not how effective the execution of that plan was

 

[Braveheart81]

We need to be blooding every and any alternative, so that not only do we have a plan for when Foley gets hurt but we actively build options to change our attack mid match.

I mean it's not like the ABs ever swapped Barrett for cruden mid match.. . .

Weird dot pattern is meant to represent ellipsis.... .. . .

Big difference is that the All Blacks are selecting players bashing down the door with great form.

We've had a dearth of options at 10 for a number of years. Foley has been easily the most consistent and that is why he has been the incumbent.

Lance would have debuted last year but got injured. Maybe he'll debut this year. His long term history though seems to be that he is available for about half the total games.

 

[Killer]

Don't get me wrong, I think Foley is significantly overrated and even if I didn't I love shitting on tahs, nut at the end of the day he's the better fly half. He has the running and support game over lance ( I'm pretty sure he's quicker over 40 yards, that lance try is more about lack of fight from the tahs around him than anything else) and is more 'proven' at test match level.

All that said I really think we've seen Foley's ceiling, and he is still making his decisions at least half a step too early - So any team that runs that old SA defence with a smart wide shooter ala De Villiers is going to take intercepts every day of the week and generally fuck with our shit. We need to be blooding every and any alternative, so that not only do we have a plan for when Foley gets hurt but we actively build options to change our attack mid match.

I mean it's not like the ABs ever swapped Barrett for cruden mid match.. . .

Weird dot pattern is meant to represent ellipsis.... .. . .

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whenever Jono is on the field for WF the opposition defence are often in a state of indecision.
I think he is very clever tactically and also at concealing his actions and doesn't stuff up.
Probably some credit there to Meakes and our backs coach.

 

[Wilson]

To be clear, by blooding I mean bringing into train on squads. And I very much believe lance should be in them. Just not that he should get the start over Foley yet, however well he trains

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[Braveheart81]

To be clear, by blooding I mean bringing into train on squads. And I very much believe lance should be in them. Just not that he should get the start over Foley yet, however well he trains

I think everyone agrees Lance should be in the squad.

I think Leali'ifano will be added from the Brumbies though.

 

[Wilson]

I think everyone agrees Lance should be in the squad.

I think Leali'ifano will be added from the Brumbies though.

Lilo as the next cab off the rank is careless at best. He's still yet to play a game at super level on the return and has otherwise never really featured in cheikas teams.

Either way don't you include lance over magnay or nabuli?

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[Braveheart81]

Lilo as the next cab off the rank is careless at best. He's still yet to play a game at super level on the return and has otherwise never really featured in cheikas teams.

Either way don't you include lance over magnay or nabuli?

Yes, I would have Lance over those two. I expect both of them to drop out when the squad is reduced though.

Lilo was part of Cheika's playmaking group in 2015 that met in advance of squads being named. He then was just outside the test squad for that RWC year when we pretty much had everyone available.

He played tests on the EOYT when Cheika took over and played the three tests in the June 2016 series before his leukaemia diagnosis.

Assuming he makes a reasonable comeback this weekend I think Cheika will pick him based on leaving out both Cooper and Lance.

Anyway, we'll see.

 

[Slim 293]

Thought our lineouts was the reason we lost against Scotland.

Couldn't convert any of the chances close to the line because we couldn't get clean ball to set up a good maul etc.

Arnold was a serial offender and must be the second worst 2m+ lineout target in World Rugby. (Skelton #1)

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Er, are you confusing Arnold with someone else?

He is the #2 lineout target for the Brumbies and has 2 steals for the year..........

The wobs lineout has been shite for a few years now, despite some noted lineout specialists in the squad.

 

[fatprop]

Yeah, it will be all clearer on Monday when the Brumbies are selected