Wallabies 2020
- Thread starter A mutterer
- Start date
S
Show-n-go
Guest
Really? I’d say it’s working pretty well at the moment. How many non-eligible wallabies are overseas? Skelton, Arnold, Coleman, CLL and Kerevi....can’t think of any others. I’d call that a win on the flip side we’ve been able to lure back White and O’Connor
Adam84
Nick Farr-Jones (63)
I have no issues with how it’s played out thus far.
I’m happy the right players were rewarded with their test jerseys based on their own individual sacrifices.
Perhaps in the distant future it could change, I’m also wary of opening Pandora’s box and RA losing their single biggest bargaining chip they have for retaining test players within Australia.
Opening selection to foreign based players, will only cause more players to head overseas, which will impact on the profile and quality of Australia’s already limited domestic teams, driving their entertainment and advertising value down even further. It’s a vortex which should be avoided.
Tomikin
Simon Poidevin (60)
Agreed want to play for Australia, play in Australia. We don't have the Money to match up overseas, so we keep our best and brightest hopefully playing in Oz till later, we will loss a few but I mean it wasn't like RA didn't try and keep Kerevi they throw the a lot at him. We brought Home White, To'omua, O'Connor and we can pick some absolute talent from overseas when needed, e.g. Gits who was one of the very best in the world and why they did it. Arnold's a lose but his not young, Coleman as well but his form was down. CLL was on his last legs. Foley could be selected, but okay we are moving on, we got his best years here at the Tah's and Wallabies and now its onto the next.
I dont see who we really really really going to miss next year with it the way it is. Skelton.. maybe but we have a bunch of young hungry locks here lead by Rodda who is amazing and LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) who is experienced, then we have Swain, Hockings, Blyth who everyone rates.
The biggest bottle neck now, is we have some really good juniors coming through in all states and we may start losing some older or younger overseas for opportunity.
Im not sure opening up the door to overseas players makes us that much better, but it could make us a big fuck load worse.
Derpus
George Gregan (70)
We don't really really ever miss any one player. It's cumulative. How nice would it have been to have Douglas coming off the bench instead of Simmo and Coleman, or McMahon rather than LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto).
Perhaps the time is not now. But it's coming. Super is getting worse and the money in Europe and Japan is getting better.
Tomikin
Simon Poidevin (60)
Douglas has been shit for years, Coleman was better. and McMahon rather than LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto).. Or Maybe Pete Samu instead of LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto).. that makes a much better comparison. I think McMahon was a better then Pete but not by much..
Spot on. This will not work long term. McMahon is an instructive case for the potential issues many of these young stars may have to deal with. They can’t all play and some will need to be patient.
I’d be curious as to how many countries had other than their First XV, notwithstanding injuries, available for selection? How many had to sustain rorts such as White actually not being a Brumbies player till 2021!
Tomikin
Simon Poidevin (60)
Im not quite sure if your for or against the policy..
Against, we need more players in professional programs. We don’t need to create and perpetuate protectionist policies we need the best playing. Imagine the Socceroo’s if they are only picked onshore. We are not deep enough in talent. We may develop more if we expose more of the young players to the required development either here, NZ(ITM), Japan or Mars. We need to expand the net as well. Far too many are written off as kids by not making schools/20’s etc. More pathways, different pathways not more rules or more raiding Island countries or residentially qualified NRL players. Vunivalu is residentially qualified via his time in Australia playing a different sport where he proudly proclaimed he was a Fijian and would play RL for them. If he turns out for the Wallabies we make a mockery of ourselves more than anything else Far more so than picking players who have gone to Japan for a better paycheque.
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
The comparison to football (soccer) I don't feel is a particularly valid one. It ignores fundamental difference between the competitive landscape of the two sports. For example, soccer in Australia has never had a competition with domestic teams that regularly competed against some of the best international talent. We have had this historically with Super Rugby where we have teams and players competing against two of the top countries in the sport. For football players to get anywhere near an equivalent level of exposure in their sport has required a move into foreign competitions, so yes, it would be foolish to select the Socceroos just from domestic comps.
By what metric?
Many players already use the paths of the ITM, Top League and other competitions to develop their skills before moving into Super Rugby. It's one of many valid pathways some players have chosen if they didn't make it via other junior and talent identification pathways. I'm not sure what you mean by expose more young players to these options? I would say they are aware they exist and it's an open market, so they will get positions/contracts if the clubs of those competitions think they are worthy.
Again, I'm not even sure what you mean by this? Players have freewill. If they are unsuccessful making rep teams or squads at various levels there is nothing preventing them from continuing to participate and develop in the sport. Some of these players are just generally all-round athletes and may choose to pursue other sporting opportunities. This is just a factor of a competitive sporting market.
So where are the lines drawn for you? because the reality is that we live in a globalised world where people migrate and to be honest most of us come from somewhere, it's all just a matter of timeframe. If Vunivalu had proudly represented Fiji in say shot-put would you have such an issue, or is it just that it was a sport that looks 'similar'?
Also, I'm not sure what this 'raiding Island countries' is all about. Again you seem to discount that individuals have the ability of choice. No one is going over and dragging these PI players to Australia. They are often leaving their islands to pursue opportunity. In many cases when they are very young or some are even born here. Vunivalu was already in NZ when an opportunity attracted him to the Storm. He now has another individual choice in joining Rugby and potentially meeting the requirements to play for the Wallabies. Why shouldn't he if he is the best option? Is 5-6yrs in one country for a 23yr old not enough for you?
Me personally, I think RA would be foolish to remove the current requirements without some serious modelling of the implications. The current requirements have an economic value which allows them to compete in the global market for players in a way that they wouldn't be able to otherwise. There are also, so many other considerations around the model of players dropping in from abroad and how this truthfully functions well in such a team sport with its culture and systems. I just always get the feeling people think if you fly in all the perceived 'best' players from wherever you magically get the 'best' team irrespective of all the other elements that goes into a successfully functioning team.
Comprehensive , did you you use a red font?
Won’t respond in kind this could get to ridiculous size pretty quickly. A couple of observations and a rant.
Players flying in for tests is no big deal. Happens all the time in work, other sports etc travel isn’t the ordeal it’s made out to be anymore. They will get used to it.
As to qualification I will say this , for mine the most embarrassing thing I have seen in professional international sport in a long time of following it was Henry Speight being taken on a Wallaby spring tour before he was even qualified.. was he that good or were we that desperate? Never saw anything that warranted the former position to be so compelling. The message it sent to every other wing on the depth chart was clear, your that shit we are taking a bloke who cannot play until 7pm on the 12th day of the tour but we are taking him anyway and not that we are watching the clock...
There are no simple answers to any of this but as to the point that it is working I cannot see any evidence of that
We got beat in the quarter final, having lost a chance for a smooth pathway to at least a semi by not managing to beat Wales. One side we have handled ok for years. This in the back of historical low test winning %
Super Rugby is a shambles, generally ignored by the sporting community, if it wasn’t for rules and conferences we would struggle to get a side into the top 6 most years
The games is struggling for number in schools and the bush
Pay tv is about to drop the hammer on revenues. Winning a few games may assist with this.
We just told a bloke with a shit ton of money to piss off, handled that process very poorly and show no signs of any managerial or administrative competence in anything we do. FFS Folau’s re issued contract e en was missing a discussed clause around conduct and social media. WTF that is amateur hour.
The only bright light is club rugby is going ok, but even there forfeits are common in the lower grades and clubs struggle hand to mouth most years save for a few who have more cash and players than they know what to do with. Do Uni really need to have a super rugby quality halfback in third grade? And more to the point how have they got that guy thinking that this is the right slot for him to be in? But your right, it is all about individual choice.
Rant over, just not sure that this system is really humming along so well and couldn’t do with a little bit of tinkering.
Derpus
George Gregan (70)
We did the same with Marika Koroibete. I think its about getting a player who is earmarked for a cap soonish to get familiar with the squad, travel, training etc.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
2014 Henry Speight prior to the recurring hamstring injuries was easily the best winger in the country at that time..........
He was included on the spring tour when he became eligible........... I don’t see how any non hysterical person would find that to be embarrassing?
He was included on the spring tour when he became eligible........... I don’t see how any non hysterical person would find that to be embarrassing?
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
The thing is, I actually think there are some valid arguments for considering a change to the Wallabies qualification rules, particularly in RWC years. I just really disagreed with some of your assertions as to why, particularly with little consideration for the negatives of such a move.
.
I agree. We can only hope all these various reviews RA speak of actually help layout some genuine and real strategic plans and changes that help guide Rugby in Australia in a positive direction.
Likewise, except to say there is more than Club Rugby going ok, we have a lot of great Junior talent coming through, developing coaches, growing womens game..etc.. I'm genuinely optimistic even if it seems apparent that there are a range of systemic issues.
Adam84
Nick Farr-Jones (63)
picking foreign based players for the wallabies has flow on effects which aren’t been considered, it gives up the single biggest bargaining chip RA has to compete with the international markets for keeping players in Australia. Broadcast rights and revenue streams for the domestic leg of the game are already struggling, to then lost more players overseers will impact on that even further.
To do that, you might as well bury super rugby now, because you won’t be retaining the current test players if they can earn more money overseas whilst still playing test rugby and the world cups. Super Rugby will lose a significant chunk of its value if it loses its test stars and the the struggling competition will collapse in on itself.
Picking guys like Skelton is a sugar-hit solution which generates longer terms problem.
To do that, you might as well bury super rugby now, because you won’t be retaining the current test players if they can earn more money overseas whilst still playing test rugby and the world cups. Super Rugby will lose a significant chunk of its value if it loses its test stars and the the struggling competition will collapse in on itself.
Picking guys like Skelton is a sugar-hit solution which generates longer terms problem.
I risk sounding like a broken record, but I'll say it one more time.
The comparisons to soccer are very valid, because IMO if we drop the Giteau rule then Super Rugby becomes the A-League - a second rate comp filled with young hopefuls, club battlers and old veterans.
It gets some passing interest from local diehards, but more people are interested in big-money foreign leagues where all of our good players are based.
TV revenue drops, crowds drop, Super rugby goes further down the tubes.
.
The comparisons to soccer are very valid, because IMO if we drop the Giteau rule then Super Rugby becomes the A-League - a second rate comp filled with young hopefuls, club battlers and old veterans.
It gets some passing interest from local diehards, but more people are interested in big-money foreign leagues where all of our good players are based.
TV revenue drops, crowds drop, Super rugby goes further down the tubes.
.
Derpus
George Gregan (70)
I think Super rugby is fucked regardless. I also think we would remain competitive internationally.
I'm not convinced there is a correlative relationship between a domestic league and national success. Sticking with the Soccer analogy, Croatia were world cup finalists and have players in the biggest teams in Europe despite having an absolutely garbage, grossly corrupt domestic league.
The English have long suspected that having the biggest domestic league has actually hindered their national teams progress (as is also suggested by the French rugby side).
Outside of Brazil and the River/Boca games South America have pretty average competitions. I attended a league game in the Colombian domestic league and the attendance and standard were pretty much on A-league level. They still produce ace footballers and are reasonably competitive internationally.
My suspicion is that what happens as a kid is far more important than any professional competition available in your country. We suck at Soccer because we just don't have a culture that produces talented footballers.
I don't disagree that we'd remain competitive. That's not really the problem in my eyes.
It's the loss of revenue from TV content. At the moment, Super Rugby is a big part of our local and international TV deal. And that deal makes up the bulk of our revenue base.
So ripping the talent out of Super Rugby reduces the value of those rights, which in turn sees a big hit to our bottom line. Which means less money for juniors, 7s, high performance etc.
Now the question of 'is this going to happen anyway?', and that might be another discussion for another thread, but for the time being we desperately need Super Rugby to be commercially viable.
.
Adam84
Nick Farr-Jones (63)
And unlike soccer, rugby union in Australia won’t be kept alive by a massive juniors base or interest in the various competitions internationally if the domestic competition is downgraded even further or collapses.
Rugby union absolutely needs a marketable presence in Australia for which it to leverage marketability and growth at grass roots, Australia won’t have international players to even pick from in 15 years without a super rugby pathway to identify them and lock them away from other codes.
Rugby union absolutely needs a marketable presence in Australia for which it to leverage marketability and growth at grass roots, Australia won’t have international players to even pick from in 15 years without a super rugby pathway to identify them and lock them away from other codes.