Wallabies EOYT 2017

[Ignoto]

From what I saw of the Barabarians vs Classic Wallabies Sam Greene seems to be one that got away. Obviously, the match was nowhere near test standard but he scored a double and looked classy throughout. Real shame he never got to develop his talents in Super further.

Blame the brains trusts in the Reds Carpark for that one. Reds Fans were livid when we retained Jake instead of giving Sam some time to develop. Everyone saw he had potential, but needed a few years out of school to let his body develop and handle the strain of being a full time rugby player.

 

[TOCC]

Jake had signed for 2 years, Green for 1... both served out their contracts and left.. I agree it was ridiculous that Greene wasn’t given more game time when he was there, but I also think he decided to leave the country prematurely rather then staying and continuing his development.

Let’s hope Stewart is handled far better.. certainly not Wallaby EOYT 2017 though


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[Hawko]

That's all right TSR, but with the depth of talent that seems to be coming through lately, I want to see specialists competing for the spots, not just fitting in the excess player(s) from other positions because they are seen to be among the top echelon of players. Put simply, Hodge aside because he is developing in the wing spot and is almost essential for his long range goal kicking, I want the wing spots to be filled by wingers, not No 12s or No 15s who might be considered as more talented rugby players but who have played all their lives in other positions.

You'd be suggesting that Hanson is an idiot for playing Smith and Dagg together in the one team then? This is his preferred line-up when everyone's available.

For a whole range of reasons rugby coaches of national teams no longer play two wingers getting frostbite and one fullback. Its probably more common that your team has two "fullbacks". So maybe what is happening in national teams now is that you require two "specialist fullbacks" and one "specialist winger"?

 

[Up the Guts]

So maybe what is happening in national teams now is that you require two "specialist fullbacks" and one "specialist winger"?

I think part of it also is that back in the day kicking was just part and parcel of a winger's skill set. In the modern game wingers aren't really required to have well developed kicking or passing games so we pick guys like Savea, Ioane, Koroibete, Taqele, North etc who are great athletes and have Lomuesque physiques. Dagg and Smith probably still possess a lot of the traits of more classic wingers but we see them more as fullbacks because we don't associate kicking and distribution skills with wingers.

 

[TSR]

Is it really that much of a new phenomena though. Campo always rated himself as a fullback more than a winger. Joe Roff was a capable fullback as was Andrew Walker. I’m sure there are others I’ve forgotten.

In principal I agree specialists are desirable - but then one or best 10s Larkham, was moved to 10 because he was playing too well to leave out, but nor could they leave out Burke. Players like Little, Herbert, Mortlock, Burke & Horan were all picked in different positions for periods of their career to either plug holes, accomodate other players or because tactics at the time meant it would be beneficial to the team.

Some guys skills are adaptable, some not so much.

 

[Up the Guts]

Is it really that much of a new phenomena though. Campo always rated himself as a fullback more than a winger. Joe Roff was a capable fullback as was Andrew Walker. I’m sure there are others I’ve forgotten.

Well depends what you're defining as 'new' but certainly before Lomu it was uncommon to have wrecking ball wingers. Drew Mitchell is more the classic model of the winger but he was picked at fullback for the Classic Wallabies. As a lot more of the physically gifted pacific island players, who often have the size of backrowers but the speed and mobility of outside backs, have been uncovered the model of the winger has changed.

 

[TSR]

Tuigamala predated Lomu - but yeah, I get your point.

 

[Braveheart81]

So we got through the entire Rugby Championship without conceding a yellow card.

Discipline has improved out of sight.

Hopefully we can continue that on the EOYT.

 

[fatprop]

So we got through the entire Rugby Championship without conceding a yellow card.

Discipline has improved out of sight.

Hopefully we can continue that on the EOYT.

It was high on Cheika's to do list to fix dumb penalties and YCs

 

[KOB1987]

That's actually an awesome stat, I wonder if it's ever been done before. By any team.

 

[dru]

That's actually an awesome stat, I wonder if it's ever been done before. By any team.

It IS an awesome stat. But the strategy leaves us comparatively unengaged in the rucks. There might be a better middle ground.

 

[Braveheart81]

It IS an awesome stat. But the strategy leaves us comparatively unengaged in the rucks. There might be a better middle ground.

The area where we're not getting turnovers/breakdown penalties compared to our opposition are massively at hooker and somewhat surprisingly at halfback (TJ Perenara) and in the centres. Our backrow is actually performing pretty well statistically there. Hooper certainly had the most turnovers of any of the backrowers in the Rugby Championship. The top two players were Marx and Creevy who got way more than anyone.

 

[Strewthcobber]

The area where we're not getting turnovers/breakdown penalties compared to our opposition are massively at hooker and somewhat surprisingly at halfback (TJ Perenara) and in the centres. Our backrow is actually performing pretty well statistically there. Hooper certainly had the most turnovers of any of the backrowers in the Rugby Championship. The top two players were Marx and Creevy who got way more than anyone.

Can't possibly be true BH. You can't make a turnover while seagulling out on the wing

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[Derpus]

The area where we're not getting turnovers/breakdown penalties compared to our opposition are massively at hooker and somewhat surprisingly at halfback (TJ Perenara) and in the centres. Our backrow is actually performing pretty well statistically there. Hooper certainly had the most turnovers of any of the backrowers in the Rugby Championship. The top two players were Marx and Creevy who got way more than anyone.

I daresay if Latu was fit and in the mix he'd be pinching a few.

 

[Scrubber2050]

^^^^^^^^^
AND probably giving away more penalties than he got turnovers

 

[Up the Guts]

^^^^^^^^^
AND probably giving away more penalties than he got turnovers

I thought they were actually a bit lax on the breakdown this rugby championship. A number of times I saw players bridging before they got their hands on the ball and the referee was happy to award a penalty for holding on when he should have pinged them for not supporting their own body weight.

 

[TSR]

Initially we were soft at the breakdown and our defence was leaking like a sieve. Those two things together are a recipe for disaster.

I still think our defence has some way to go, but it certainly improved a lot. Out impact at the tackle improved a lot too.

The third Bled showed our accuracy across the board (well - maybe except Hooper) still needs a lot of work and maybe our positioning over the ball does too. But suddenly our defensive pressure created errors and isolated the ball carried behind his supports and, lo & behold, we could create break down pressure.

 

[Up the Guts]

I still think our defence has some way to go, but it certainly improved a lot. Out impact at the tackle improved a lot too.

I would like to see some of our backs' skills over the ball improved as well. Often a skilled outside back, especially wingers, can jag a few turnovers or force a penalty against the run of play when the opposition makes a break because support players lag behind. Ashley-Cooper used to do it well for us and Naholo does it well for NZ. Koroibete seems like he would be pretty strong over the ball--he was over the ball when he conceded that penalty against SA in the 77th minute--so if he's coached on when to identify opportunities for a turnover it could be a valuable asset.

 

[Derpus]

^^^^^^^^^
AND probably giving away more penalties than he got turnovers

I reckon he was unfairly pinged fairly consistently during the last Super campaign.

 

[Gnostic]

I think part of it also is that back in the day kicking was just part and parcel of a winger's skill set. In the modern game wingers aren't really required to have well developed kicking or passing games so we pick guys like Savea, Ioane, Koroibete, Taqele, North etc who are great athletes and have Lomuesque physiques. Dagg and Smith probably still possess a lot of the traits of more classic wingers but we see them more as fullbacks because we don't associate kicking and distribution skills with wingers.

Actually Savea is not a good example as he developed significantly his kicking skills from when he first burst onto the scene. The great Wallaby sides always had two full backs who could kick as well as run it back with aplomb, with one selected on the wing which made the territory game difficult to execute against them. Think Campo/Roebuck and Burke/Latham/Roff I know the Wallabies have been trying something similar with Beale at 12 or Foley from 10 dropping back, but for mine it creates defensive issues, and whilst they have defended very well since the first test blow out, it has been by stupendous effort in scambling to cover the line breaks. Not all line breaks have been due to the structures, but we can all point to the glaring ones that most certainly are. The issue for me is the players are expending so much energy to cover for a deficient structure. In Bled 3 I think we saw further refinement to the structure and maybe it will improve to the point that this point is not an issue. The other glaring issue is that whilst as a running player Folau is one of the best in contact and under the high ball he is without peer, but the fact is he cannot reliably kick for shit. So the Wallabies are left relying on either Beale or Foley to drop back to return a kick to provide that option, and that makes the Wallabies that much more predictable.