Australian U/19 v. England

[Lee Grant]

Some thoughts about the individual players, if I remember anything about their nplay..

1. Gary Neugebauer

2. Hugh Roach – worst game I have seen him play: several not straight throws and poorly disciplined (he was carded). He also allowed a long snipe from a scrum, but to be fair they had switched him to 6 late in the game and he didn't have the pace to get to the runner. Yet sometimes he looked like the young TPN at the same age and at least was one of the few forwards that was interested in knocking Poms over. Very tough, angry young player but needs more work.

3 . Oliver Hoskins – hasn't got any smaller than last year. If the Force can teach him to scrummage he'll do well. Atheltic for a big guy. Had one very nice run.

4. Jed Holloway

5 . Steve Cummins – outstanding game, best I have seen him play, sure hands at the lineout, tough in the exchanges and not bad with the ball in hand either. As captain he should have ordered a couple more kicks at goal.

6. Luke Beauchamp

7 . Boyd Killingworth – very rusty after long lay off. Missed a few tackles including one leading to long run and the eventual Pom try.

8 . Jason Havea

9 . Matt Lucas – young Matt would agree that he has played better. Was caught several times dispatching the ball too slowly and some passes were ropey, unforced. But whereas the Pom scrummie was protected well, Matt wasn't.

10 . Dion Taumata – reasonable game but outclassed by direct opponent on the day. Did not have the game control of the Pom.

11. Blake Murray – little bloke but very tidy player.

12. Con Foley – very handy player; but didn't cause a lot of grief to the Poms.

13. Malie Hingano – dropped 3 balls in a row in promising situations but was responsible for launching some sweeping moves into England territory.

14. Lindsay Crook - had a couple of good runs but often found himself too close to touch. Needs to work off the ball more.

15. Peter Schuster – played very well and launched a few attacks.

Reserves ( and the positions I think they played when they came on)
16. (2) Tim Read
17. (3) Michael Bermingham – hard player
18. (4) Sam Reiser
19. (7) Tom Connor
20. (9) Tim Donlan – perked up the Oz backline when he came on.
21. (10) Stuart Dunbar * Ditto
22. (1) Les Makin – rambunctious, not too many backward steps from Les. In your face.
23. (11) Mitch Felsman – classy and fast like Crook but had trouble with the touch line also.

* 10. Kyle Godwin did not play. Probably on tour with Force in Samoa?
12. Apo also did not play.

 

[Sebby]

So did bermo play good when he got on?

 

[Lee Grant]

Looked OK but did nothing of note; literally, I didn't make a note of anything he did, except "hard player."

When one watches a scratch team like this one can't watch everybody closely and can only rely on impressions one got.

 

[Upright]

Looked OK but did nothing of note; literally, I didn't make a note of anything he did, except "hard player."

When one watches a scratch team like this one can't watch everybody closely and can only rely on impressions one got.

Thanks Lee, i agree with the great majority of your comments. England were just too good for our boys in all aspects of forward play with Roche right off his game. Equally our backs lacked organisation and dare I say it...skill. Simply running at a player and hoping you will get through doesn't work. Hopefully this game will achieve two things (1) cause the selectors to look outside of the NTS/ Aus Schools 2009/10 Squads for the under 20's next year because based on this game some of those boys have progressed others are still playing as if they are at school (2) make this years schools teams both the A's and the Firsts, realise they will be in for torrid afternoons oveer the next 10 days.

 

[OppO]

From my understanding it wasn't an England U18 side but an U19 development squad on tour for the tournament next year. So the Aus Schools boys will be out matched?

 

[PTB]

Some thoughts about the individual players, if I remember anything about their play..

thanks lee, give another opinion on players individual performances, was really surprised of the outcome of the match, the English lads were very well drilled and played very smart football

1. Gary Neugebauer - For a big boy against younger boys didnt seem to throw himself about a lot, few too many penalties at scrum time too, also blew a few opportunities for australia near the try line with some drop balls from pick and go's subbed at half time
2. Hugh Roach - Agree lee of day for the usual ever reliable roach, hits a lot of rucks and plays aggressively always willing but very undisciplined today
3 . Oliver Hoskin - Similar with Neugenbauer albeit seemed to work harder
4. Jed Holloway - Average performance, but still made a few good carries but needs to increase involvements and also work at breakdown
5 . Steve Cummins – Agree with lee, was the best man on park for the academy's team, seemed to top the runs count for them and was excellent in the line out, seemed to be at a fair few rucks too, his leadership it was an exhibition and we all want to see tries so I will give Steve the benefit of the doubt
6. Luke Beauchamp - Decent work rate, will need to put on a bit more size for more of a physical presence I think but solid all round game
7 . Boyd Killingworth – I thought he was one of the better ones and more willing Lee, was at a lot of rucks and made a few turnovers but missed a crucial tackle on the 10 as you said
8 . Jason Havea - Anonymous
9 . Matt Lucas – expected a lot more, has quite a large reputation, dont know whether to blame the aus pack or Lucas himself but rather disappointing performance form the under 20's half, slipped of a few tackles, but also made some nice ones
10 . Dion Taumata – Didnt seem to want to play field position most probably due to tactics, but definatly one of the better for aus and his first grade experience seemed to show, looked dangerous and times and was evident that there is some class there
11. Blake Murray – Not sure how to rate him, tidy but lacking in some attributes it seems
12. Con Foley – Agree with Lee solid game, but didnt seem to be too dangerous for the England defense, had some good go forward on some carry's though
13. Malie Hingano – Off day for the usual dominant Hingano
14. Lindsay Crook - Did some good work, some good runs but found the sideline far too often
15. Peter Schuster – Looked dangerous and created a few opportunities for the aus side but also found him self isolated on a few occasions, havnt seem much of Schuster but has a lot of potential it seems

Reserves
16. (2) Tim Read limited opportunities but throwing was on the money
17. (3) Michael Bermingham – physical player but didnt quite make a mark on the game
18. (4) Sam Reiser - Good in line out, but limited impact of bench
19. (7) Tom Connor - Willing but didnt get much of an opportunity, still needs to become more physical, noted one important covering tackle though
20. (9) Tim Donlan – Only got 10 minutes I think but the aus backline looked sharper when he was on, made one good dart down the sideline but got man handled once also like lucas did for much of the match, looked quite small out there
21. (10) Stuart Dunbar - Wish this lad got more of an opportunity to perform, failed to find the touch line with a penatly
22. (1) Les Makin – definitely made an impact of the bench, a few big hits from this lad and a good workload for a prop. really added impact of the bench which is what you want to see, the best of the bench by
23. (11) Mitch Felsman – Touches of brilliance nad flashy moments with his limited time but ran out like Lee said

The team would of benefited with the quality of apo at there disposal greatly, shame he pulled out but I think a lot can be learnt from this hit out for the boys and also for aus rugby going forward.

 

[Lee Grant]

Good analysis PTB. It is hard to remember everything and everybody; so between us we have probably given a reasonable profile of the Oz players.

Many of these lads had the same problems in the Schools team last year, especially against the Kiwi boys. I don't think that Apo would have made a great deal of difference as he and Hingano were a bad combination last year, as I foreshadowed 12 months ago. They have a similar game style.

The Aussie lads are not inherently inferior players as a group to the younger England lads. They have just been drilled better. This is not sour grapes: the visitors played well; but you could just see that they had acquired something that Oz didn't have.

People will say it is teamwork and it is probably the best word we have, but it's not quite right. We need one of those long German type compound words that means: working-with-team-mates-rugby-ability-that-enables-other-team-members-to-play-better-and-to-therefore-get-a-better-result-for-the-team.

For as a rough example in the forwards: an Oz lad would maybe hit a ruck hard, on time and at the right spot, but an England player may well have combined with a team mate a moment before the hit in the same situation.

You see this team play ability of forwards in pro rugby. Folks will remember Jonno's great RWC winning team and a couple of years leading up to 2003, and the All Blacks recently at Eden Park (then compare it to the Oz individual forward efforts, by comparison).

I'm not comparing these Pom lads to those men but they have done very well in acquiring team attributes and it argues well for their coachability. This will hold them in good stead as senior players. One thing I will say about England rugby. You can see the same vein of team play coaching from the senior squad down to U/20 and schools.

I wish Oz rugby could adopt the same methodology. We should always keep flair in our play but it should be underwritten by a bigger base of team focus than our players have now.
.

 

[Lee Grant]

PS

I didn't comment on the England players as there were no lists for the teams yesterday. Hopefully they will have them at the Oz A game on Thursday.

For those who want to follow the progress of the Oz Schools teams next week, go to the Schools forum.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

This England side is made up of players that have been part of the various academies attached to the first division professional clubs in England (London wasps, Harlequins, etc.). The players have been in these Academies since they were 15 years old. They have been given very professional coaching and training 5 days a week within the club set-up and are virtually professional players, playing with the clubs in their leagues - albeit in junior grades. They also have been playing international rugby since the age of 16 in a Six Nations type challenge each year. Some of the players currently on tour have 8-10 international caps to their names.

i know that the players in the 19's and the Oz Schoolboys have also been in various training groups since 16 and have some very good coaching at school and from the ARU however, the environment under which most of the English lads are involved with is far superior in experience and physical development than what we do here in OZ. Most of our players have been with our senior clubs for less than a year

Once our players leave school and have a couple of years to develop with their various clubs in Colts and grade we quickly catch up to them as evidenced to our recent record against England in Seniors over the past few years (last years game excluded). However, if we are going to take the U20's seriously and even the 7's then we have to start looking at how we are developing our 17 and 18 year olds, particularly in their physical development. We can match the skills of these overseas sides but fail to match their physical presence. An example of this is that this current England side has several players over 110kg in their forward pack and the physical difference between the two sides was obvious on Sunday

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

For those that are interested the age difference between the two teams yesterday was not that great with just about all of the England players well over 18 approaching 19. In the past it has not been uncommon for some english lads to repeat their final year at school to get some touring experience

 

[country rugby]

so why would the aru let reasonably inexperienced boys go up against a side like this, probably knowing what the result would be. By not giving the aussie boys a decent chance to play as a team this was bound to happen, then they are roasted on this forum. considering their lack of training together I am sure they played the best they could.

 

[Lee Grant]

Some lads were off their game as always happens but they were all trying. They could have won the game but for not taking a couple of penalty shots with the wind behind them and a couple of passes had stuck. It was just the game organisation of the Poms that was noticeably superior. If the Oz lads had their rugby background and theirs, ours, I have no doubt about who would have won.

Iluv - but the England team had to be U/18 this year didn't it? Since the Oz team was U/19 it should follow that, on average, the Oz team was a year older, assuming that the Pom lads will be 18 or younger on 31/12/11 and the Aussies, 19.

 

[Joe Mac]

Is there still a match at Riverview this weekend?

 

[Lee Grant]

Discussion on this game and any further discussion on the England team should made in the relevant thread in the Schools forum. (There is already discussion about the England team on the Australian Schools team thread).

This U/19 thread will stay open for discussion of the match last Monday and the Oz U/19 team who played, otherwise please don't use it.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

Lg

i think the game is on Sunday 28 August starting at 2 pm

Thanks - they changed the date and even the time on the Oz schools link. I checked it yesterday to answer Joe Mac. I would have missed today's game had you and E & E had not posted.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Hopefully they will have them at the Oz A game on Thursday.

If you're talking about England Schools v Oz Schools it was never going to be on the weekend - it's on Monday at 2pm at View.

Lee, are you sure? I thought the A game is on Wednesday (tomorrow) and the Schools Test on Sunday - can you confirm.

As above - thanks a lot. I have posted the Schools amended calendar link in a later thread.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

Iluv - but the England team had to be U/18 this year didn't it? Since the Oz team was U/19 it should follow that, on average, the Oz team was a year older, assuming that the Pom lads will be 18 or younger on 31/12/11 and the Aussies, 19.

lee

From what I can see most of these players were playing in u18 competitions last year and were selected in the U18 side at the end of last year. i am unaware of the selection criteria re age qualification

 

[Joe Mac]

LG,

The Ausschools thread is closed on the Schoolboys forum so I am posting this here sorry.

Sunday 28the August 2011
@ ST IGNATIUS COLLEGE - RIVERVIEW
KICKOFF: 2PM
AUSTRALIA SCHOOLS
vs ENGLAND U18
CURTAIN RAISER
NSW CCC vs QLD CCC
KICKOFF: 12.15PM



(from the Aus-Schools website)


Thanks - it looked different yesterday when I checked the site to answer you - it could have been a senior moment, but as I remember they changed details of the U/19 game a couple of times.

 

[bloodred]

so why would the aru let reasonably inexperienced boys go up against a side like this, probably knowing what the result would be. By not giving the aussie boys a decent chance to play as a team this was bound to happen, then they are roasted on this forum. considering their lack of training together I am sure they played the best they could.

I agree with you here CR. It is a near certainty that a team put together with only a couple of days notice, that in general have not played together, are going to struggle against a touring side that have been part of an academy type set-up. People on this forum can be very unforgiving at times. As someone has said, I am sure all were doing their best. Give them some credit for making the team in the first place

 

[Spewn]

If the team (the NSW contingent) is not picked on Colts form then it won't do too well either.