Australian U/19 v. England

[Spewn]

If Connor is still the best 7 in NSW based on colts performances, then plenty can feel disappointed. That's a crap throwback to schoolboys. Don't the selectors watch matches? Why is Killingworth selected when he hasn't played? Again, a selection based on schoolboys rather than form on paddock.

 

[Torn Hammy]

Spewn, I have seen Connor play twice this year and both times he was best on field by a mile. Who would you say is better?

 

[Lee Grant]

At last – the team is announced. I don't know that Spewn is right that Colts form has been ignored, but Killingworth hasn't played any rugby since his injury playing in trials for the Rats yonks ago – well, as of info a few weeks ago. I hope they are not rushing him back too early.

Am very disappointed they didn't pick Gill to captain the side. It would have been a great opportunity to put him in a position of authority and even to be a quasi-coach on some matters. I guess that players who have full Super contracts were a no-no.

Of other players I picked earlier in the thread: Miles McCaffrey who has played 1st Grade for Eastwood and for the Junior Tahs has missed out, as has Lewis Holland of the Oz 7s team. I was surprised that these lads who have played at these levels have been omitted.

I see that Apo and Hingano may team up in the midfield again. I hope they are a better combination than they were for Oz Schools last year. Good to see flyhalf Godwin of WA in the team, I saw him have a top game for Force A when they were in Sydney before the S15 started and am sure he will go well - old head on young shoulders.

I haven't seen wingers Felsman and Crook play since school. I hope they get a bit of pill because they are very quick.

Taumata has played quite a bit of 1st grade at fullback for Easts but I see that he got a run at flyhalf, his schools' position, last weekend. [Playing fullback is very good for young 10s as they can see the game from the point of view of their main protagonist.]

Cummins is a regular 1st Grade player now and was the Oz Schools captain last year; so he is probably a chance to be skipper.

Incidentally waves, Hoskins was a prop as recently as last year at school, but he is a tall lad and may be playing in the 2nd row these days as you indicate. He's a goer and borderline nutter – admirable in a young forward.

I don't know much about Beauchamp, Makin, Schuster or Murray – or have forgotten. Have they made their mark in Colts?

Anybody in Colts who is age eligible who missed out though having good Colts form? Spewn?
.

 

[waves]

I don't know much about Beauchamp, Makin, Schuster or Murray – or have forgotten. Have they made their mark in Colts?

Anybody in Colts who is age eligible who missed out though having good Colts form? Spewn?
.

Schuster - Plays Norths 2nd Grade a good player very good on his feet although doesn't posses much of a kicking game.

Agree with many points LG especially with Liam Gill would be good to see him run around, Second string 7 in this age group would definitely be Miles McCaffrey. A few colts players in which I though could have a shot:

Jed Gillespie (Prop - Eastwood) Played a lot of grade who have thought he would've got a shot.
Ben Melrose (Backrow - Sydney University) Captaining a very good Sydney Uni colts side and leading from the front.
Stuart Dunbar (Utility Back - Sydney University) Has played a great first half of the season a real find.
Jason Seage (Utility Back - West Harbour) Probably given up on him because of his code switch next year.

 

[Done that]

re Connor.
Interesting.
I saw him recently ,& thought he looked very ordinary.
Quite disappointing in fact.
Not that he didn't put in the effort , but in this game was outmuscled.

 

[Lindommer]

Spewn, I have seen Connor play twice this year and both times he was best on field by a mile. Who would you say is better?

You obviously weren't at Concord last Sunday week, TH, Tom had a very quiet game against the Pirates. He played very well against us in the first round at Latham but I fear he's not big enough to progress much further.

 

[Bruce Ross]

The little I have read about this game really concerns me.

The Australian Schools Rugby Union site lists the game as "ENGLAND VS AUSTRALIA U19". On this site we have had some further snippets of information:

ARU Academy U19 XV playing England Schools at Weigall (Sydney) at 2.30pm on Sunday August 21 according to the ASRU newsletter

have seen a bit of the selected team - not at liberty to divulge - but you will find that it is basically compiled from players that are in the academies from WA, Canberra, NSW and QLd (many of who were overlooked for selection in the Aust schools last year) and players who have been kept on by NTS or entered the NTS system after their school finished (some of who were in the Aust schools last year) but many who were not. Dont think there is anyone who has got in from outside the NTS and academies.

So this is a game to showcase NTS and Provincial Academy players, giving them a great leg-up for Australian U20 selection next year.

So just what is this "NTS"? From the "National Talent Squad" page on the Reds' site I read:

Who are the players?

80+ players aged 15 - 18 are identified from National Talent identification (including players nominated by the provincial union) and selected in October by the ARU in consultation with the provincial union, to commence the program in November. Players remain in their home province. The numbers will differ between provinces and additional players can be added to the squad throughout the year.

Players from outside the Super 14 provinces are also viewed for possible inclusion in the National Talent Squad in the best-suited location geographically.

...

It is anticipated that NTS members will graduate through their school and club programs to their State's Provincial Academy, or, in the case of the best few of them, to the HPU Contracted Players squad, unless they have already been selected in Super 14 squads.​

So you have "80+ players aged 15-18" chosen by the ARU and provincial unions. From all the thousands of school and junior club players throughout Australia born in a particular year only about 20 players are chosen to be fast tracked and cosseted by the ARU's HPU staff. It is human nature for any organisation to defend its decision making, so there might be an understandable reluctance to admit that the 15-year-old identified as a super star of the future is a dud.

In any case NTS members are given "4 (1 core, 3 individual) skills sessions per week and 5-6 strength and conditioning sessions per week throughout the year, in accordance with the National Models of skill and physical development and under the supervision of the Elite Player Development Coach and the Elite Player Development Strength and Conditioning Coach." In addition "Each provincially based National Talent Squad assembles twice a year for a Talent Squad Camp. As well as skills, and strength and conditioning work and testing, the squads are inducted into the Career Training Scheme and other HPU initiatives during these camps." Add in schools and/or club rugby and there is not a lot of time left to waste on frivolities like education.

Having survived 8-9 training sessions per week for a few years and assuming they have kept their noses clean NTS members can anticipate graduating "to their State's Provincial Academy, or, in the case of the best few of them, to the HPU Contracted Players squad, unless they have already been selected in Super 14 squads." Wow! How good is that?

Admittedly the system is a little self-determining. The HPU and the provinces determine who goes into the program and then at the end of the process determine who gets academy and contract places as well as spots in the Australian U20 squad.

To really streamline the Australian system of player development this ARU Academy U19 XV game has to become an annual fixture which would then seamlessly transition into the next year's Australian Under 20s. This would remove all the doubts and indecision from the thousands of other teenage rugby players who are not in the NTS, so they could just focus on their weekly game of club rugby.

I have to keep reminding myself that authority and wisdom always walk hand in hand.

 

[Jets]

It would have been nice for Con Foley from Uni to be involved.

 

[Red Heavy]

Agreed Jets. I have not seen the kids who were picked ahead of Con play so cannot pass judgement on what must be an extremely tough selection. What I can say is that Con has been fantastic in premier grade for Uni all year. Was man of the match on the weekend up against Ben Taps and a few other pretty handy players from Sunnybank. Was never picked up by any junior programs (NTS, QLD schools ect) but has shone in his 2 years at uni.

 

[Lee Grant]

I have to keep reminding myself that authority and wisdom always walk hand in hand.

:lmao:

Very droll Bruce.


I hope that the selections took into account some Colts or Grade form and didn't rely just on NTS and academy status.


What they did to select the team for this one off U/19 game doesn't really matter a lot but if future U/20 teams are going to be picked by referring to the purity of ones rugby bloodlines, and not current form in Colts or better, it will be of major concern.


Mudbloods (google it Bruce), have to get a fair shake of the broomstick, because the form of many young players early in the season before the U/20 team is selected can have taken a quantum step up from the end of the prior season.


As one wrote earlier in the thread: I would like to see an annual 3 game U/19 tournament as a precursor to selecting the U/20 team for the following year. Costs could be minimised by accommodating players at rugby boarding schools like TSS or Joeys during the holidays and playing the games at the location.


The teams would be NSW, Qld, ACT and Combined States. The "states" should pick their own teams, so fellows like Con Foley could be included on merit, and the ARU would pick the CS team as the schools CS team is picked - that is, it could include ACT, Qld and NSW players who missed out on the other 3 teams. If their NTS favourites have missed out they could put them in here.


The tournament would go from Wednesday to Wednesday with no finals games, so the lads miss only one club weekend. Highest ladder points including bonus points wins, with points difference as a tie breaker. As mentioned before: the point of the competition would not be the competition, but the first stage of the selection process for the U/20 team the following year.


The idea would be to hold the tournament as late as possible to take into account a full season of rugby in which Mudbloods could exhibit their step up to wizard status. That, and taking into account the step up of a few others in the new season would be a fairer process, and would be seen to be fairer also.
.

 

[high tower]

Good idea Lee,
but most likely the academy player would get most spots in the state teams u/19 and therefore narrow the pathways even further.
I doubt the academy heads would be keen for their players to miss out on selection at u/19s level anymore than schools or u/20s and would push their barrows as they no doubt do now.
Perhaps a NSW/ACT team of non academy players trialled against NSW/ACT academy team 3 months before next years u/20 would show some of the talent outside the inner circle.
The same could happen in QLD.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Mudbloods (google it Bruce),

There are a couple of other connotations of the word "mudblood" or "mud blood", LG, that are at odds with the definition provided by J K Rowling. Very much at odds. Not for the littlies.

 

[country rugby]

Is the team officially listed anywhere, on any official website, can't find it anywhere. Hopefully the list given here is correct.

 

[Spewn]

Spewn, I have seen Connor play twice this year and both times he was best on field by a mile. Who would you say is better?

Torn,

I also have seen him play twice. He put real pressure on at the breakdown. He is one of a few I have seen who genuinely make a difference at the breakdown. Don't get me wrong, I think he is a good player. But he is not necessarily the best and his selection is a hangover from schoolboys. I expected more. Connor's best achievement this year has been the blonde streaks.

McCaffery was more deserving than Killingworth. He is not a 7 despite being picked there by Eastwood. I would suggest some from the Easts, Manly and Uni backrow for a start.

 

[Torn Hammy]

Spewn,

Most of the 7s are pretty banged up at this end of what is a long season. We will see better next year those who are going to progress.

I agree that the rednut 7 from Easts is worth looking at. What has happened to Goodman? Actually, both Goodman twins? He is usually in the mix for these teams.

 

[Spewn]

Stuart is injured I heard. Bruce knows more. Uni seems to be lacking a genuine 7 as Melrose us there. I like the Manly 7 but he may be in his second year of Colts.

 

[Upright]

Stuart is injured I heard. Bruce knows more. Uni seems to be lacking a genuine 7 as Melrose us there. I like the Manly 7 but he may be in his second year of Colts.

My initial post on this thread highlighted boys who are Under 19 and who I believed were playing well in Colts. I note some have been included in this compilation team now listed. Last weekend I was invited to Millner to see Eastwood(3) play Gordon (7) - which much to my hosts surprise Gordon won.It was a most enjoyable game and gave me another chance to see some of those boys who fit into this category of Under 19 eligible, whom I had listed in my post previously but who weren't included. For what it is worth Eastwoods best were Gillespie at prop and Kent at 8. Gillespie is strong and mobile and has good hands. Sutton was coming back from injury and was hurt during the game so was not at his best. For Gordon their 12 Carmichael simply dominated the game with strong defence and clever passing. This performance reinforced my view after seeing him play against Manly earlier in the year. 10 Moss and 13 Simkin were very good but I believe are in their last season of Colts. In the forwards prop Cropley was good but again not sure of his age status. My point being that these two teams put on an excellent display of Under 20's rugby and those mentioned in particular Gillespie Kent and Carmichael who are Under 19 would fit comfortably into a squad which shows off all the players not just those from the NTS/Aust Schools group. As Bruce quite rightly sets out you can't have the poacher being game keeper as well.

 

[Rob]

I know there was some criticism of Aussie schoolboys selections last year, but at least boys that were outside the system could get selected, sometimes in front of more fancied NTS boys.

It seems that schoolboyst is the last level where this can happen. For U19s and U20s the only path would seem to be via first getting selected in academies or NTS groups.

 

[Drew]

It seems most teams got a jersey, which is fair I guess. Tom Connor is a good player, I support randwick and watch him every week. Other randwick kids unlucky not to get a look in are Liam Fulton, who was picked on the train on u20s squad last year, a good organizing half with great decision making skills. Jesse roach was also in the train on squad and has been strong since his return. Zeb Holmes has been a handful for opposition defences all year and has a high work rate and is still running in the 80th minute. And finally mark bannon would be an excellent cover for half or wing with his speed and evasive running causing trouble for tiring defences.

 

[PTB]

most teams got a jersey bar the woods