Waratahs 2013

[waratahjesus]

It's not 'hard' WJ, it's just that noone else believes that they let Mowen go without being damned sure they had a replacement (Elsom).

Do you honestly contend that Mowen was lured to the Brumbies by one million dollars and/or a heap of third party payments? C'mon mate.

No, I don't believe that, but I don't believe the Tahs "let him go". The facts as there known are.
*the tahs Offered him a 2 year contract (why if they had signed Elsom and didn't want him)
*Mowen and his management wanted a 1 year contract (this can be because a)he wants to test his value again in a year b)he doesn't think he is going to be a starter and wants the option of furthering his career elsewhere.
*the Tahs say no to a one year contract, insist he signs for 2
*Ben decides to sign for the brumbies for more than 1 year (this points to b)he didn't think he was first 15 at the Tahs and wanted opportunity elsewhere)
*michael foley is appointed coach of the waratahs
*the Tahs sign Elsom

The notion that the Tahs let him walk is bullshit, they didn't go beyond to bend over backward and allow the contract in his favor or offer him more money than he was worth, but they still offered him the same opportunity he had. Good on him for furthering his career elsewhere but the shit being tossed around about the Tahs this week is in reality bullshit.

 

[MrMouse]

No, I don't believe that

Good.

That is all.

 

[qwerty51]

I think it's a tough one, I think most Tahs fans are a little aggrieved at how it's turned out for us considering Elsom is yet to be seen this season. But I do agree that Tahs called Mowen out on his 1 year deal and did the right thing in turning him down.

 

[suckerforred]

Pocock was playing school boy Rugby in QLD yet ended up in WA. For mine, QLD not getting a hold onto him & keeping him in QLD is like NSW letting 5 players with potential go...

There is a very interesting story (is that the right word?) behind the loss of Poey, JOC (James O'Connor) and a long long list of school boys from QLD at and around this time. I was gob smacked when was told.

 

[Blue]

All I can say is that I hope for the Tahs sake they sign players that are fit and can play unlike their big names that are either out for some unknown period or break every other week.

The Tahs are the only team that seems to be able to go from a great team on paper on Monday to some third stringers thrown in for good measure by Friday.

Yes that is a bit of an overstatement but even the most hardened Tahs fan can't deny that there is some truth in there somewhere.

Yes squad depth are important but go look at the winning teams and you will find more often than not that they had a core of players who managed to drag themselves through most of the games. You simply cannot start on the back foot like this, including your Captain not playing for the first six rounds.

 

[MrMouse]

There is a very interesting story (is that the right word?) behind the loss of Poey, JOC (James O'Connor) and a long long list of school boys from QLD at and around this time. I was gob smacked when was told.

do tell?

 

[suckerforred]

OK. The QRU selection poilcy of the time - in not some many words - wait until the start of the year after they have finished school, then look at who has not been signed by the other franchises / codes. Hence, my understanding is, that Poey and JOC (James O'Connor), in particular, were already signed by the Force before the QRU even thought about talking to them. This combined with an 'unoffical' schools policy and giving priority for QLD boys (not that bad I supose), ment we had quite a few years where young signings were thin on the ground.

This is, of course, what I have been told from what I would regard as a fairly reliable source. I am guessing that the QRU might have a different version of events. Would be interesting to know their reasons for not signing Poey and JOC (James O'Connor) in particular.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

OK. The QRU selection poilcy of the time - in not some many words - wait until the start of the year after they have finished school, then look at who has not been signed by the other franchises / codes. Hence, my understanding is, that Poey and JOC (James O'Connor), in particular, were already signed by the Force before the QRU even thought about talking to them. This combined with an 'unoffical' schools policy and giving priority for QLD boys (not that bad I supose), ment we had quite a few years where young signings were thin on the ground.

This is, of course, what I have been told from what I would regard as a fairly reliable source. I am guessing that the QRU might have a different version of events. Would be interesting to know their reasons for not signing Poey and JOC (James O'Connor) in particular.

In Poeys book if I remember correctly (finished it awhile ago) he said he had received a contract offer from both the reds and the force. The reds had offered him more money as the force had him on an apprenticeship contract. He decided to go to the force as he thought he would get more of a shot quicker and the chance to be part of a new team. You also get the feel from the book that he forged a very strong bond with John Mitchell very early on which carried on as he made a speech at his wedding.

Just goes to show it’s not all about money

 

[suckerforred]

In Poeys book if I remember correctly (finished it awhile ago) he said he had received a contract offer from both the reds and the force. The reds had offered him more money as the force had him on an apprenticeship contract. He decided to go to the force as he thought he would get more of a shot quicker and the chance to be part of a new team. You also get the feel from the book that he forged a very strong bond with John Mitchell very early on which carried on as he made a speech at his wedding.

Just goes to show it’s not all about money

Yeah I read this to. But I believe the offer from the reds came a fair bit after the offer from the Force, with a couple of the others showing interest..... as they would.

 

[sudrugby]

There is a topic in France about Rocky Elsom moving to Toulouse next year.
But I'm pretty sure it is a fake info as it stated that Elsom is in its last contract year with the Brumbies... Big fail by the french media

 

[Lee Grant]

Let's look at the Tahs 2013 position without any regard to what Growden wrote and assume that all contracts will run full term.

Players whose contracts go though to 2013: (15)
Props: Benn Robinson, Sepoke Kepu
Hookers: TPN, Daniel Fitzpatrick, John Ulugia (also LHP)
Locks: Dan Vickerman
Openside flanker: Chris Alcock
Blindside flanker: Rocky Elsom
Scrumhalf: Sarel Pretorius
Flyhalf: Berrick Barnes
Centre: Rob Horne,
Wingers/Fullbacks: Drew Mitchell, Lachie Turner, Tom Kingston (also centre)
Utility: (can play 3 positions) AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)

Players thought to be contracted through to 2013 but are not confirmed: (3)
Locks: Sitaleki Timani, Greg Peterson
Utility: Bernard Foley

Players whose contracts expire in 2012: (12)
Props: Jeremy Tilse, Paddy Ryan
Locks: Kane Douglas, Dean Mumm
Openside flanker: Pat McCutcheon
Blindside flanker: Dave Dennis (also No.8)
No. 8: Cliffy Palu
Scrumhalf: Brendan McKibbin **
Flyhalf: Daniel Halangahu
Centre: Tom Carter
Wingers: Ateli Pakalani, BKH **

** Reported to be going overseas

EPS
Tevita Metuisela
Lopeti Timani
Nathan Trist
Lotu Taukeiaho
Grayson Hart

I would re-sign all the 3 players whose contracts are of uncertain length if their contracts end in 2012. It is a pity that Peterson has not had a run yet for the Tahs, except in the trial against Samoa when he shifted a few bodies and had a couple of good runs, and against Tonga when he was decent. I would re-sign him, sight unseen in Super Rugby, as I consider Douglas, Timani and him as the Tahs locks long term.

In the group of players whose contracts end this year, McKibbin and KBH are going offshore. I would re-sign the others except Tilse and Halangahu. I'd keep Hangers too if we can't find anybody else, but he'll be better off playing in the NH methinks, as Dan Parks was.

The re-signing of McCutcheon would depend on medical reports between now and the cut-off point. If they are unfavourable I would promote Jono Jenkins from the wider training group if he is still around, and for his sake I hope that he is not, having been given a contract by the Rebels earlier.

Vickers had the rod removed from his leg and is cross training at the minute; but if he is not to play again it would be best to know early: not that another lock has to be sourced if the others re-sign, but to smooth out the irregularities in the the team profile. (In this context utility players AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and B.Foley have more than their face value.)

One of the 4 contracts will have to be for a back-up scrummie. Hart, in the EPS, is 3rd string now, but the jury is out on him. There's a lack of good experienced scrummies in the land and I don't know who we can get to come home as Nic Berry has re-signed with the Wasps. Hart could be the best available.

I would also promote Lopeti from the EPS whatever the Tahs' needs are. This kid could be the replacement for Palu in more ways than one.

THP Ryan is coming into his own now. It's unlikely that he would see a starting position in the other 4 teams with Ma'afu, Palmer/Alexander, Slipper/Holmes and Weeks/Blake as the incumbents - and knows that Kepu would switch to LHP at the Tahs should Robinson be hurt or rested. One never knows though: contract changes in other teams could create a starting opportunity.

But a replacement LHP will be needed for Tilse. I'm not sure if Faulkner has a contract for more than 1 year at the Force, but I'd like to see him looked at for the gig if he is available; or maybe Scott Sio who is in the Brumbies EPS. Come home boys.

So - 4 spots available - one for a scrummie, another for Lopeti and a 3rd for a LHP. That would leave 1 spot open - or 2 if Vickers pulls the pin.

There will be more new contracted players than that because it is odds-on that the Tahs won't be able to re-sign all of Ryan, Douglas, Mumm, Dennis, Palu, Carter, Pakalani and McCutcheon/Jenkins.

We will have to watch this space (maybe literally) as negotiations go on. Whilst the Super Rugby season proceeds a deeper game will be played by the men with clipboards.


[PS if anybody sees an error in the above contract end years please advise - but only if they can provide a link that confirms it without question.]
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[Bowside]

Can one of the more knowledgeable nsw based posters comment on any long term options at 9 and 10 that the tahs might be looking into/should look into?

Are there any star schoolboys lined up for EPS or academy spot?

 

[Braveheart81]

Waldo Wessels has to be a potential EPS halfback.

 

[SuperGrover]

Can one of the more knowledgeable nsw based posters comment on any long term options at 9 and 10 that the tahs might be looking into/should look into?

Are there any star schoolboys lined up for EPS or academy spot?

I'm not one of the more knowledgeable posters you have appealed to, but there are fairly big wraps on young Stirzacer currently with the Rebels.

If the Rebels keep both Phipps and Kingi, he may want the number 2 spot at the Tahs (provided McKibben goes to Scotland as speculated). Especially as Pretorius is obliged to move on after 2 years due to ARU restrictions on foreigners ineligible for Australia, then the starting spot could be open as early as 2014.

Otherwise both Matt Lucas and Allan Faalavaau are part of this year's under 20 squad for the Junior World Championship. I believe both have also been part of the Australian Sevens squad this year.

Many in NSW (I've never seen him play) also have big wraps on Waldo Wessels, who played Aus schools last year I think.

 

[Braveheart81]

Brendan McKibbin would be crazy not to go to Scotland.

He'd have a strong opportunity to play Six Nations Rugby and play a RWC in 2015. Those are opportunities he's unlikely to get in Australia.

 

[tigerland12]

You'd think the Rebels will throw big money at one of Palu or Dennis. Will be hard to hang onto both.

 

[Bowside]

I'm not one of the more knowledgeable posters you have appealed to, but there are fairly big wraps on young Stirzacer currently with the Rebels.

If the Rebels keep both Phipps and Kingi, he may want the number 2 spot at the Tahs (provided McKibben goes to Scotland as speculated). Especially as Pretorius is obliged to move on after 2 years due to ARU restrictions on foreigners ineligible for Australia, then the starting spot could be open as early as 2014.

Otherwise both Matt Lucas and Allan Faalavaau are part of this year's under 20 squad for the Junior World Championship. I believe both have also been part of the Australian Sevens squad this year.

Many in NSW (I've never seen him play) also have big wraps on Waldo Wessels, who played Aus schools last year I think.

I dont know if Matt Lucas will play professional footy - might end up a bit small. I hope Faalavaau go's to the rebels as I think he's a Melbourne boy, he's a pretty handy player.

So Wessels and Stirzacer are presumably on the tahs hit list. They still need a 3rd flyhalf to replace hangers when he moves on.

 

[Bowside]

You'd think the Rebels will throw big money at one of Palu or Dennis. Will be hard to hang onto both.

With the salary cap now nearly 5 million, it will be possible, but I suspect the tahs finances are going to shit at the moment for a number of reasons, so maybe not.

If tahs fans had a choice would you keep both of Palu and Dennis (as well as L. Timani) and lose a player like Mumm out of the squad for a cheaper options like peterson/douglas. Because I probably would...

A backrow rotation of: Palu, Dennis, Elsom, Timani, Alcock, and either Jenkins or McCutcheon, would still on paper be one of the stronger backrows in the comp.

Add Hooper into the mix and it gets stronger. Jack Lam is also worth looking into if he is off contract.

There really is no excuse for australian teams to not have top quality 7's. It is the position that we have the most depth in.

 

[Lee Grant]

Waldo Wessels has to be a potential EPS halfback.

As Will Genia would say: definitely; the potential, though we should look at him playing Grade before giving him a gig.

It took me a while to warm to Wessels as a schools player though that was probably less his fault as a player and more mine as an observer. Whatever; he certainly had a top year in 2011 and his performance against NZ Schools was first rate.

However, I doubt if he was better in 2011 than Stirzacker was in 2009, and it's only now that we are talking about Zacker, who is in the Rebels EPS 3 years later.

Zacker may be considered by some as a contender for the Tahs back-up spot but he has played very little first grade rugby and none starting that I have seen. I'm not sure if he is still with Sydney Uni for 2012 and, if not, it is probably a good thing as he is of an age to be playing against the hard heads of the Shute Shield Ones as part of his development.

Having said that I don't know what the pecking order at Uni is now. Phipps won't be playing much club rugby, Bredenhahn is offshore and I have no clue if Schwager is still around, or not. Maybe Bruce can advise.

The best experienced scrummie in Sydney is Jeremy Sua but he played for Samoa in the RWC and would be ineligible for the Tahs. Reportedly, he has been picked up by the Rebels who have dispensation to use more Wallabies-ineligible players than other teams. I spruiked Sua for a while a few years ago when he was with the Junior Tahs, but they let him slip through the cracks.

It raises the question of whether Kingi will be re-signed by the Rebels, or not, though players as versatile as he is have a higher value than we think, and he probably will be.

There's not too many scrummies available for the Tahs from the Sydney comp better than Grayson Hart is. The small scrummie from the Sydney team (v Country), de Wet Roos, is a fiery bantam of a player, but he was ranked below Hart at Southern Districts last year.
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[Lee Grant]

I'm not one of the more knowledgeable posters you have appealed to, but there are fairly big wraps on young Stirzacer currently with the Rebels.

If the Rebels keep both Phipps and Kingi, he may want the number 2 spot at the Tahs (provided McKibben goes to Scotland as speculated). Especially as Pretorius is obliged to move on after 2 years due to ARU restrictions on foreigners ineligible for Australia, then the starting spot could be open as early as 2014.

Otherwise both Matt Lucas and Allan Faalavaau are part of this year's under 20 squad for the Junior World Championship. I believe both have also been part of the Australian Sevens squad this year.

Many in NSW (I've never seen him play) also have big wraps on Waldo Wessels, who played Aus schools last year I think.

I've written about Stirzacker and Wessells in a previous post. Wessells is destined for Super Rugby IMO but he is only 17 years old now and we will have to see him in Grade before we can judge him as a senior player. Matt Lucas is home-grown in Queensland and I think he will pursue his career there for a little while more before he looks elsewhere.

Allan Faalavaau from Dandenong High School last year is a centre, not a scrum half. He played 13 for Oz Schools in 2011 and interestingly, was hooker for the Oz Sevens team in games that I saw.

I didn't know that the U/20 squad had been picked for the 2012 tournament - or maybe you mean for the camp they have. Please provide a link if the tournament squad has been picked.
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