2017 Under-20 Competitions including Oceania & World U20s

[The sage]

He played NRC and this U20s comp.

I definitely do not think club rugby is preferably to playing the best age group players in the world in a professional environment.

I disagree with that. Think hard club rugby is perfect for developing these players. Why do u think qld players (some playing elsewhere now I.e. Rebels & act 20's) got their start? From being good schoolboy rugby players? No, not entirely, it's From playing hard club rugby in a strong club rugby environment.

We were fortunate to have a great group of players in qld Prem colts last year (combined with those that played grade) and the results are on the board. Just ask HTC and others.

I clearly remember the day (70's, 80's and 90's) when international players from our club would celebrate after a test fly up on Sunday and play club (probably half cut). It inspires the other club players and makes the competition hard. It's sad when rep players don't really play for a club; oh yes they are associated with a club, but they don't really fit in, like they should. Must be lonely for them. Plus they don't get to hon in on skills or developing new skills on lesser skilled opposition. Anyways...

Imo any hard rugby is good rugby for these young men; the more the better; rather then treating them like princes and putting them in cotton wool. I believe this is why club and lower provincial rugby is the basis of kiwi rugby; and I think that they have had periods of success.





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[thebreakdown]

Congrats to all players who move on to next stage, I have a question to the forum and certainly hope I get some good feedback. Do we have a player that has speed to the breakdown?, do we have a hooper or pocock In the making? I have seen all games ( livestream ) and IMO I haven't noticed one. No player has jumped out in front of me and convinced me that they will make a difference. Well, you know what!, we are too slow to react. Big call out to Sam Edwards!! Don't give up champ! Anything can happen from now til then. Stay strong!


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[wamberal]

Any forward from Queensland whose name is Scott-Young would be in my team, sight unseen.

 

[amirite]

I disagree with that. Think hard club rugby is perfect for developing these players. Why do u think qld players (some playing elsewhere now I.e. Rebels & act 20's) got their start? From being good schoolboy rugby players? No, not entirely, it's From playing hard club rugby in a strong club rugby environment.

We were fortunate to have a great group of players in qld Prem colts last year (combined with those that played grade) and the results are on the board. Just ask HTC and others.

I clearly remember the day (70's, 80's and 90's) when international players from our club would celebrate after a test fly up on Sunday and play club (probably half cut). It inspires the other club players and makes the competition hard. It's sad when rep players don't really play for a club; oh yes they are associated with a club, but they don't really fit in, like they should. Must be lonely for them. Plus they don't get to hon in on skills or developing new skills on lesser skilled opposition. Anyways.

Imo any hard rugby is good rugby for these young men; the more the better; rather then treating them like princes and putting them in cotton wool. I believe this is why club and lower provincial rugby is the basis of kiwi rugby; and I think that they have had periods of success.

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Of course there's merit in players coming through club. But sending a rep player back to club instead of rep, during rep season, would not be a positive for their development.

Stories of beers and clubland are very romantic, but you're kidding yourself if you think this optimal for performance. The idea that club footy is mythically hard and tough, when the contact is harder and the skills are better at elite level than ever before is silly.

I just don't subscribe to this fairy tale that rugby performance is worse now than it was. Sure, nations like NZ have gotten better faster than us, but that's not because the boys aren't playing enough club football hung over the day after a rep game.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

that wont work

its like the old joke: "how many men do you need to defend paris against invasion?" "No one knows its never been tried"

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I just don't subscribe to this fairy tale that rugby performance is worse now than it was. Sure, nations like NZ have gotten better faster than us, but that's not because the boys aren't playing enough club football hung over the day after a rep game.

They certainly dont play enough football - they do a lot of training.
A 7's game is 7 minutes each way. sure they play multiple games in 2 days. That requires some different qualities: i'll bet that the optimal body fat for 7s is considered to be less than the optimal body fat for the beginning of a junior world cup.
While they may not "have forgotten how to play 15s", to the extent that they need to acclimatise to 15s any time spent doing so is lost time.
You'd need to know that they will definitely be a better product by the start of the tournament than everybody else who might have been there. since they haven't played against the alternatives in U20s or club that involves more of judgment/guess work than for those who are playing 15s.
Looking at what NZ does is relevant because if they dont do it or do it differently we need evaluate why that is. Same for 6 Nations.
After all they're the countries we need to be competitive with.
Its pounds to peanuts that in a playoff between a contracted player and one who isn't the contracted one will get the nod: to do otherwise swims against the received wisdom and selectors seldom do that. Indeed including them when they haven't played 15s for a couple of years is proof of the point, isn it?
Having said all that this is Cron's first year and I'd love to think he might change those type of perceptions.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

On another note: is there any way of downloading the U20s videos?

 

[The sage]

Of course there's merit in players coming through club. But sending a rep player back to club instead of rep, during rep season, would not be a positive for their development.

Stories of beers and clubland are very romantic, but you're kidding yourself if you think this optimal for performance. The idea that club footy is mythically hard and tough, when the contact is harder and the skills are better at elite level than ever before is silly.

I just don't subscribe to this fairy tale that rugby performance is worse now than it was. Sure, nations like NZ have gotten better faster than us, but that's not because the boys aren't playing enough club football hung over the day after a rep game.

I'm not talking about during rep season. That's only been for the last month and a bit; I'm talking about at other times, rather than prancing around with the Tah's for some fitness work and non full contact. You may take it as a joke Amirite but it isn't and there is no romance about it, it's just another form of rugby. And any for of rugby, I believe, will improve the player's better than non appearances with the Tah's the Reds or whoever. That's why most of the Qld u20's team play for either there prem colts or prem sides. You can't tell me that MacCauley wouldn't of benefited from playing Shute Shield? playing against Norths?? Ofc he would have, so your argument sort of falls apart there.

I think the a probable solution is that the Waratah's for instance, have a playing list of some 36 players. Pick 28 players for the weekend and let the residual play club for the weekend. Better than warming your ass on the bench (except in south Island of NZ) and may save money as well.

In addition, I think all the super rugby and 7's people should be committed to the u20's world cup 100%. It's ok to have super rugby and 7's players in the mix or selected (if good enough) but I think the u20's is a greater honour than those commitments and the ARU has the power and authority to release them, if required.

The is after all test matches with a cup at the end of it. What better development does an u20 player need than that.

 

[Braveheart81]

While they may not "have forgotten how to play 15s", to the extent that they need to acclimatise to 15s any time spent doing so is lost time.
You'd need to know that they will definitely be a better product by the start of the tournament than everybody else who might have been there. since they haven't played against the alternatives in U20s or club that involves more of judgment/guess work than for those who are playing 15s.
Looking at what NZ does is relevant because if they dont do it or do it differently we need evaluate why that is.

All our 7s players should be playing the NRC. Hopefully that happens this year given it isn't an Olympics year.

That is one of the benefits the South African and New Zealand players have is that most of them play good quality XVs by going back to Currie Cup / Mitre 10 Cup.

 

[amirite]

They certainly dont play enough football - they do a lot of training.
A 7's game is 7 minutes each way. sure they play multiple games in 2 days. That requires some different qualities: i'll bet that the optimal body fat for 7s is considered to be less than the optimal body fat for the beginning of a junior world cup.
While they may not "have forgotten how to play 15s", to the extent that they need to acclimatise to 15s any time spent doing so is lost time.
You'd need to know that they will definitely be a better product by the start of the tournament than everybody else who might have been there. since they haven't played against the alternatives in U20s or club that involves more of judgment/guess work than for those who are playing 15s.
Looking at what NZ does is relevant because if they dont do it or do it differently we need evaluate why that is. Same for 6 Nations.
After all they're the countries we need to be competitive with.
Its pounds to peanuts that in a playoff between a contracted player and one who isn't the contracted one will get the nod: to do otherwise swims against the received wisdom and selectors seldom do that. Indeed including them when they haven't played 15s for a couple of years is proof of the point, isn it?
Having said all that this is Cron's first year and I'd love to think he might change those type of perceptions.

None of them haven't played XVs in even 6 months, let alone a couple of years. Yes, different physical requirements for 7s, but I've specifically mentioned cases where than isn't an issue. A 95kg centre is fine as this level, as is a 85kg halfback.

I know we fear the 7s conversions, their habits and physiques are different, but Speight, Messam, SBW, Cusack, Figg, and Clark are all people that have done it quickly with reasonably to high levels of success.

On another note: is there any way of downloading the U20s videos?

Yes, go to youtube and find the match you want, copy its link, google "youtube rip", paste the link, and follow the site's instructions to download the video.

 

[The sage]

On another note: is there any way of downloading the U20s videos?

I don't know inside shoulder. You can certainly view them on Rugby.com but I don't know whether they can be downloaded.

Last year we went to a South African rugby mob who did all the prem games in Brisbane. I don't know whether they did this series of games. They charged ofc, but don't remember their name or website.

HTC can give you the site.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yes, go to youtube and find the match you want, copy its link, google "youtube rip", paste the link, and follow the site's instructions to download the video.

thanks

 

[Happy to Chat]

I don't know inside shoulder. You can certainly view them on Rugby.com but I don't know whether they can be downloaded.

Last year we went to a South African rugby mob who did all the prem games in Brisbane. I don't know whether they did this series of games. They charged ofc, but don't remember their name or website.

HTC can give you the site.

Double Take Productions, but I don't think they have done any recordings of the 20's. I'll check anyway.


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[Happy to Chat]

Nah mate, nothing on Double Take.


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[The sage]

Any forward from Queensland whose name is Scott-Young would be in my team, sight unseen.

Yeah I would have him in my team as well. I'm not convinced, as yet, he is a 6 or 7. He has previously played at 4 and 8. I think he is more 8 like at the moment and probably size prohibits 4 or 5.

 

[The sage]

Congrats to all players who move on to next stage, I have a question to the forum and certainly hope I get some good feedback. Do we have a player that has speed to the breakdown?, do we have a hooper or pocock In the making? I have seen all games ( livestream ) and IMO I haven't noticed one. No player has jumped out in front of me and convinced me that they will make a difference. Well, you know what!, we are too slow to react. Big call out to Sam Edwards!! Don't give up champ! Anything can happen from now til then. Stay strong!


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In this competition I don't think we do at the moment. Getting close, but still not quite the level of Hooper and Pocock. Closest is probably the Qld 7 and perhaps the NSW #6 (Rebels #6?). Haven't seen much of the Melbourne Rebels duo (Leota and Valetini).

 

[amirite]

In this competition I don't think we do at the moment. Getting close, but still not quite the level of Hooper and Pocock. Closest is probably the Qld 7 and perhaps the NSW #6 (Rebels #6?). Haven't seen much of the Melbourne Rebels duo (Leota and Valetini).

Letoa is injured for quite a while and Valentini was poached by the ACT. Definitely not an on-baller though.

 

[Happy to Chat]

Letoa is injured for quite a while and Valentini was poached by the ACT. Definitely not an on-baller though.

Leota IMO is not an 80 min player good option for fresh legs off the bench though.


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[Lee Grant]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Agree on Leota when I have seen him - and I've said in the past that the Rebels will do Aus rugby a service if they get him to be an 80 minute player. But the jury is still out on that mission.

The NSW no. 6 mentioned above is Lachlan Swinton, who may benefit at the camp by competing on an even playing field, so to speak. Although players in top teams are part of their success they can look better when playing with better team mates - and vice-versa.

Swinton is a lineout 6 who plays with fury and rage; he could be a smokie for Georgia.
.

 

[amirite]

Leota IMO is not an 80 min player good option for fresh legs off the bench though.


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I don't think he's ever put enough professional games together back-to-back to make that assessment.

Just because he's a gigantic islander doesn't mean he can't go all day. He was always a lean guy with an engine when he was young, and he could play all day. That was the last time he played consistent rugby.