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Australia v Argentina, Sept 14th in Perth

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No4918

John Hipwell (52)
Not sure about Mowen as Captain, if anyone else was available he would not be there. The only players that have done enough to not be under pressure for there spots are AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Lilo, Slipper, Fardy and Folau.
 

Zander

Ron Walden (29)
I'm not even going to check the backs, because we're fucked regardless if the forwards don't step up. But I must say, it's pretty bloody impressive that you've managed to purge the entire starting team of any reds players whatsoever. Kudos! Especially considering Slipper and Simmons were far from the worst performing forwards.

Interesting, I don't care much for Aus provincialism and I actually had no idea how many Reds were in my team - that wasn't a factor but it must say something that they didn't register a thought.

"Zander" I'm shocked you didn't find room for Willy Skelton on the bench or Rob Horne at 12.

Will Skelton has potential but not yet, Mowen could do an adequate job at lock if required. Kuridriani has more line breaking ability late in games than Horne although he needs to improve his hands.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
Funny seeing the myths of size and alleged power coming out again.

Timani FFS. I am assuming those pushing this mean Sitaleki. Those people obviously didn't watch southern systematically destroyed in all facets of play on the weekend. Timani x 2 in the side and both made little ground right up until the last 10 minutes when running at 13 (that is THIRTEEN in case you missed where he was positioned) he made a huge run of 15 metres. In the tight he was constantly tackled at best on the gain line. As for the scrum the less said for the Rebels boys the better, though in fairness they packed against a Super level front row. The moral to the story is that Timani x 2 were very far from dominant in those aspects that those pushing for Sitaleki's selection would have him selected on, and at the lowest semi-pro level in Australia.

As I said in this thread (post 23) it is with huge reluctance that I am promoting the selection of Timani at tight head lock. He's currently in dispute with the ARU over a contract release and that's not going to have him in the right headspace anyway. But we are absolutely desperate.

Before we fix the breakdown and general field play we must address the scrum, otherwise the Argies will murder us. They dominated NZ last Saturday, two weeks ago NZ dominated us. Kepu and Moore were poor I grant you and I would drop Kepu but Simmons technique and effort were awful! Our loose head side was nowhere near as bad. My point was that we bring Timani in primarily for his work in taking the strain off the tight head prop. I would do anything else in preference but I can think of absolutely nothing else that will give us a hope of getting scrum parity.

You are right to say that its a poor option. In my opinion it is poor too - its just that every other option is worse. From the available cattle the only other option we could consider at tight head lock is pairing Fardy and Carter. But Carter has never been in the squad.
 

KOB1987

Rod McCall (65)
I don't think there is need for any radical change but:

1. Robinson must be brought back
2. Genia needs time on the bench
3. O'Connor needs time on the couch (yes, he has been playing OK but his attitude sucks as per Noddy's comments)
4. Drew Mitchell should take his spot in the squad
5. To'omua should start
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Good question.

Seems to me that we need to be making more ground around the ruck before getting our backs involved. Said backs must not run lateral but at angles and towards the line. Let's not try to run it out of our 22 all the time and force the Argies to play from deep in theirs.
Agreed but investing more units in the rucks means less width, which means a tighter, more combative game plan with more kicking

So to me, that means starting players who play more to the Brumbies game plan than either the 'Reds' or current 'Waratahs' styles

It means playing the White, To'omua, Mogg kicking spine with the assumption that Argentina are unlikely to score from their own 22

Sent from a tiny evil keyboard
 

mark_s

Chilla Wilson (44)
I don't see our current game plan as building pressure on teams. We move the ball until a hole is found and then send one runner through. But we can't execute well enough to turn this into pressure or points. Worse, the mistakes we make turn into 7 points for the opposition but our poor execution mean we are only scoring in 3's when we do score.

Its either onwards with all guns blazing on the current path (trusting the execution will improve quickly, but with risk of worse losses and possible total disintegration) or Link needs to go to plan B quickly.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
Agreed but investing more units in the rucks means less width, which means a tighter, more combative game plan with more kicking

So to me, that means starting players who play more to the Brumbies game plan than either the 'Reds' or current 'Waratahs' styles

It means playing the White, To'omua, Mogg kicking spine with the assumption that Argentina are unlikely to score from their own 22

Sent from a tiny evil keyboard

Yep, although Mogg scares me.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
From what I have seen, only Sitaleki Timani is joining the squad in Perth. Has anyone heard of anyone else heading over?

Outside of the matchday 23 from Saturday, who else remains with the squad?

Foley is still technically in the squad but you'd imagine will be released for the Shute Shield Grand Final if he isn't in the matchday 23.

With Horwill and Schatz injured, is there anyone else from the 30 apart from Anae, Tomane and Kuridrani?

It will be a little mystifying if Robinson isn't brought across and at least considered this week. There is no way that Link could be looking at the scrum and thinking that it just needs another week of training to come good.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
Less so if he is instructed to just kick shit out of it and not run it back.

But. if we want to play ball in hand from our own 22, he ain't the right option

Him kicking it every time he touched the ball was a bit of an issue in the 2nd Bledisloe. If he's only doing it in the 22, of course that's fine. But if he starts kicking back every ball he catches again we aren't going to get anywhere that way.

He can run like the wind and I'd like to see him do it a few times instead of just skinning the ball.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
He appeared to be lacking in confidence against the AB's.As you say he did not take the line on with ball in hand,and when kicking did not try and make 50 metres any time.
He just knocked it out 20 metres upfield to ensure he made no errors.
If he played that way for the Ponies he would be dropped.
If he is picked,he needs to back himself.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Him kicking it every time he touched the ball was a bit of an issue in the 2nd Bledisloe. If he's only doing it in the 22, of course that's fine. But if he starts kicking back every ball he catches again we aren't going to get anywhere that way.

He can run like the wind and I'd like to see him do it a few times instead of just skinning the ball.


It worked for the Brumbies and we ain't playing the ABs
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Remarkable that most posters here think a likely solution to the 2013 Wallaby woes lies in yet more selections and positional shuffling. Yet simultaneously hand-wringing over poor Wallaby attitudes, skill execution, mental robustness and so on.

Yet the facts are so clearly that the sole team-based revivals of quality outcomes within the last 5 years of elite Australian rugby have originated with major changes and upgrades of relevant coaching staffs and equally, where coaching has been poor in terms of either man management or technical development (or both), teams have deteriorated or at best ossified. In parallel, it's clear that the Premier Grade club teams in the game's heartlands of Sydney and Brisbane that have the best facilities and depth of coaching and professional support staffs, namely UoS and UQ, generally have dominated those competitions. Have we not yet grasped the pattern-truth that, at fundament, its our highly uneven and unreformed rugby educational and leadership culture that is our core problem, not some deficiency in raw talent?

If any business or crack management team that I know of had inherited the obviously appallingly low levels of skills, mindset, technical nous and capacity to execute of a type demonstrated by the mid-2013 Wallabies they would as a matter of certainty by now have booted out all the senior incumbents of any key positions within the organisation that permitted such a third-rate outcome to eventuate, especially when such persons had been oversighting said enterprise for 18 months or so. (Anyone now wanting to revive Deans' reputation as an easy post-Boks Valium hit should look no further than answering the question: after 6 years on a $1m pa salary, in what actual state did Deans leave core Wallaby capability, tactical ingenuity, player development and skill execution?)

The problem we have is that we don't yet know how good as coaches are Link and McKay at Test level - and as I've posted in the last days the omens on this front from their post-2011 halo period are in fact quite worrying - but we surely know that the signs are compelling that Blades and Scrivener have at best achieved precisely nothing for the Wallabies and at worst may well have taken the team's applicable skills backwards. (Totality Tony conveniently - and with fulsome ARU support - slipped away to a new job in Melbourne but one must ask what on earth he achieved for the Wallabies' core foundation in his 15 or so months with them especially given his self-annouced extravagant job description upon commencing.)

Then we clearly lack additional Wallaby coaching positions which are obviously needed, to parallel the types of positions historically filled by M Byrne and G Enoka for the ABs.

We obviously think we know better than the NZRU and can retain massive $ overheads in the ARU HQ yet outside that place of luxury totally rebuild the 2013 Wallabies as world-class on the cheap with a slim bunch of demonstrably mediocre support coaches whom have achieved nothing to date. And that institutional stupidity - as that's precisely what it is in a long line of distinguished continuity on that front - is exactly what we see indirectly rendered in today's Wallabies.

Unless the right totality of leadership and coaching skills are urgently introduced into the 2013 Wallaby management infrastructure little will change in terms of sustained Wallaby quality. Indeed, things will get comparatively worse as they already are as our principal competitor teams - the Boks and the ABs - are clearly improving and innovating far faster than are the Wallabies so the gaps are increasing, as we have so clearly seen in recent weeks. For example, Meyer is starting to achieve the breakthrough to completeness and competitive dominance that Bokland has so clearly needed - powerful attacking capability in the backs to deliver larger numbers of 7-pointers off classic Bok strengths in the forwards.

We are slowly being destroyed by insularity and mediocrity at the very highest reaches of the code in this country. I sensed too as I watched thousands of fans leave Suncorp early last Saturday night, that the dangerous 'tipping point' into a more serious, rapid decline of the code here is coming ever closer. You reap as you sow.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
Yes. It is test rugby.

Generally you should kick more often and play a field position game because defences are better organised, miss less tackles and punish mistakes more frequently.

Kicking everything back and 'playing territory' are two entirely different things and you should know better than that.

You've also seen the AB counter attack absolutely destroy the Wallabies on enough occasions to know that ignoring it as a facet of play like we did in BledII is absolutely asinine.
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
9am tomorrow all will be revealed.

Genia getting dropped is a good move. Quade deserves another chance and I think he will get it. McKenzie left him on for the 80 verse the Boks so I think that is a sign he backs him. To'omua's dominate defence may be a plus though, not expecting many others in the 15 to dominate there opposite.

EDIT: Second halves have been the killer so far. Fitness? Tired? The large Brumbies contingent have done a lot of work and travel this year.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
But the Brumbies played more test like rugby than any other Aus side

The Brumbies pack was able to physically dominate most of their opponents..the Wallabies current forward pack would be lucky to match Georia at the moment. If I recall, the Brumbies didn't go so well in some games where their forwards couldn't stamp their mark as easily.

There are nuances to the way 'test' rugby is played and the Brumbies played a distinctly South African style. To try and build that much of our attack upon forcing turnovers off of kicks would be absolutely suicidal at the moment.
 
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