Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2013

[Quick Hands]

Let's see what the result is in the 3rd v 3rd final tomorrow between Victoria and Combined States, before selecting smokies from teams outside the top 4 of NSW I+II and QLD I+II.

Absolutely, I was referring to the Vic/ACT situation. Traditionally ACT have had more players selected than Victoria. I think we all expect most players to come from the top 4 teams.

 

[Lee Grant]

It will be interesting to see what sort of ongoing commitment the boys will be required to make to rugby. I believe that there are a few who have some sort of NRL commitments. I wonder what sort of contracts, if any, they have with league. IMO these boys should commit to rugby as a precondition for selection in the tour.

It's not going to happen. The view of the ASRU is what their President, Brother Wallace told me last year.

They take the view that their job is to give every boy a good rugby experience and if some went to another code after school then at least they had been exposed to the union code.

He said that they used to do it differently but it was counter-productive for both the ASRU and the boys themselves.

Three of the Newington lads have already played in the Youth Cup for various league clubs this year but had to stop when the GPS started their competition. There are other rep players involved also.

I'd like to get them back some time to union, especially Taane Milne, who has a bit of Peter Betham about him, but the chances will be better now than if he played a few years back and was discriminated against.
.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It's not going to happen. The view of the ASRU is what their President, Brother Wallace told me last year.

They take the view that their job is to give every boy a good rugby experience and if some went to another code after school then at least they had been exposed to the union code.

He said that they used to do it differently but it was counter-productive for both the ASRU and the boys themselves.

Three of the Newington lads have already played in the Youth Cup for various league clubs this year but had to stop when the GPS started their competition. There are other rep players involved also.

I'd like to get them back some time to union, especially Taane Milne, who has a bit of Peter Betham about him, but the chances will be better now than if he played a few years back and was discriminated against.
.

Are these trips still paid for by, either, the participants or fundraisers arranged for specific participants or does the ARU pick up the tab?

 

[Roar]

With the final NSW 1 v NSW 2, you'd expect quite a few NSW boys. I also noted that Vic beat ACT by a big score, so I'd like to think that would be recognised.

It will be interesting to see what sort of ongoing commitment the boys will be required to make to rugby. I believe that there are a few who have some sort of NRL commitments. I wonder what sort of contracts, if any, they have with league. IMO these boys should commit to rugby as a precondition for selection in the tour.

My Information is that the 4 boys in question love their Union greatly and are hoping for a better pathway through Union than league but have been fortune enough to have league as well. Interesting Noticed a few NRL Spotters and Managers at the games, hiding under pushed down caps and Scarves ! Lol.

 

[Lee Grant]

NSW1 v NSW2 and Q1 v Q2 - interesting! I wonder at the way the selectors view this. Does a dominant display by a 2's player, esp a NSW2s player erase the previous selection opinion about the NSW1 player? Etc

This is why you need experienced selectors and I suggest that Ben Whitaker, Steve Phillpotts, Manu Sutherland, Tim Rapp and Phil Langtry are just that. (I don't know Glen Cronan at all.)

 

[Zander]

This is why rugby needs a pro u20s competition. These boys are offered u20s contracts straight after school, alignment with an NRL club and paid 40-50k to train with them. For many, the best they can do in rugby is an academy position.

 

[Lee Grant]

Noticed a few NRL Spotters and Managers at the games, hiding under pushed down caps and Scarves ! Lol.

They're always there and there's probably more of them at U/16s because the Opens lads are well known to all of them already.

Years ago I was at the Aussie Champs (at Queens Park, I think) and Noel Cleal and Cement Gillespie were in front of me in the food queue.

They carried off a lot of pies and when I asked for one the lady said the "large gentlemen" had taken the last ones.

They're a pain.
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[Roar]

They're always there and there's probably more of them at U/16s because the Opens lads are well known to all of them already.

Years ago I was at the Aussie Champs (at Queens Park, I think) and Noel Cleal and Cement Gillespie were in front of me in the food queue.

They carried off a lot of pies and when I asked for one the lady said the the "large gentlemen" had taken the last ones.

They're a pain.
.

Your lucky it wasn't George Rose in front as he would have cleaned up everything !

 

[Rugby Mum]

I am surprised one of the Shadow players weren't called up??

Nick Kellaway was the shadow for 4,and he is in CS. Being school holidays some kids may be away. I wouldn't sit at home awaiting a call as a shadow player! Burkett can fill the shoes and great to see him get the opportunity. I know he was stoked.

 

[Quick Hands]

My Information is that the 4 boys in question love their Union greatly and are hoping for a better pathway through Union than league but have been fortune enough to have league as well.

I think that's right.

But more generally, many boys this age have 'contracts' with RL clubs which aren't worth much in $ terms and are little more than warehousing of players. With 5 super rugby teams, there's probably more opportunity to 'make it' in rugby.

 

[I like to watch]

I'd like to get them back some time to union, especially Taane Milne, who has a bit of Peter Betham about him, but the chances will be better now than if he played a few years back and was discriminated against.
.

Invariably, those that leave School and go to the other side,only come back when they have run out of options in that code.Their Schoolboy memories have no bearing on their decision IMO.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think that's right.

But more generally, many boys this age have 'contracts' with RL clubs which aren't worth much in $ terms and are little more than warehousing of players. With 5 super rugby teams, there's probably more opportunity to 'make it' in rugby.

That was my understanding but Zander is talking 50k

 

[Monday's Expert]

In the past, dominant performances by NSW or Qld 2s players have seen them selected over their 1s counterparts - as it should be. Good players not in the main final should all come under consideration for selection based on their performances. Again, historically the strongest teams in the tournament tend to be rewarded with selections - particular when 2 boys are about equal and a choice has to be made.

I hope that all boys put on their best show tomorrow, and boys receive the selection that they deserve.

Mr Hands, I hope fairness comes into it too. I remain unconvinced about Cronan as a selector, I ask again, has he ever coached a 1st XV or rep team in any competition of note?? I was working in Sydney in 2006 when Q2 won the competition the first time and found an excuse to get out to Riverview "on a client visit" in time for the final. I stayed and watched the teams announced and felt the same as you did, that the dominant team would be rewarded, after all Q2 had now defeated Kurtley's NSW1 and overcome NSW2 in the pressure of a final. Q2 got a pat on the head with a couple in the Schools and a couple in the A's and so did NSW2 get a couple in ( they had beaten Quade's Q1 ) but the overwhelming bulk of the squads were from Q1 and NSW1. Fair - ?? You tell me. I reckon you're a bigger chance to see Panda triplets. Maybe it proves that a team is more than the sum of its parts.

 

[Zander]

The Toyota Cup salary cap is 250k between 20 players so $12.5k on average. Bit off on the 40-50k, maybe 20-30k for the best players.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Mr Hands, I hope fairness comes into it too. I remain unconvinced about Cronan as a selector, I ask again, has he ever coached a 1st XV or rep team in any competition of note?? I was working in Sydney in 2006 when Q2 won the competition the first time and found an excuse to get out to Riverview "on a client visit" in time for the final. I stayed and watched the teams announced and felt the same as you did, that the dominant team would be rewarded, after all Q2 had now defeated Kurtley's NSW1 and overcome NSW2 in the pressure of a final. Q2 got a pat on the head with a couple in the Schools and a couple in the A's and so did NSW2 get a couple in ( they had beaten Quade's Q1 ) but the overwhelming bulk of the squads were from Q1 and NSW1. Fair - ?? You tell me. I reckon you're a bigger chance to see Panda triplets. Maybe it proves that a team is more than the sum of its parts.

There's been commentary along these lines in the Sydney Junior rep threads as well.
These selections are not about "teams" they're about individuals within teams. It must follow that how any team goes is only of marginal relevance, at most, to how a player goes in the selection meeting.

 

[Roar]

Invariably, those that leave School and go to the other side,only come back when they have run out of options in that code.Their Schoolboy memories have no bearing on their decision IMO.

I think that's right.

But more generally, many boys this age have 'contracts' with RL clubs which aren't worth much in $ terms and are little more than warehousing of players. With 5 super rugby teams, there's probably more opportunity to 'make it' in rugby.

and in Union there is No Salary Cap compared to the NRL and the players in Union get Opportunities to see the World, where in the NRL their main Opposition is NZ !
I would love to see better pathways in Union, who can match similar to the pathways in the NRL.

 

[Quick Hands]

Mr Hands, I hope fairness comes into it too. I remain unconvinced about Cronan as a selector, I ask again, has he ever coached a 1st XV or rep team in any competition of note?? I was working in Sydney in 2006 when Q2 won the competition the first time and found an excuse to get out to Riverview "on a client visit" in time for the final. I stayed and watched the teams announced and felt the same as you did, that the dominant team would be rewarded, after all Q2 had now defeated Kurtley's NSW1 and overcome NSW2 in the pressure of a final. Q2 got a pat on the head with a couple in the Schools and a couple in the A's and so did NSW2 get a couple in ( they had beaten Quade's Q1 ) but the overwhelming bulk of the squads were from Q1 and NSW1. Fair - ?? You tell me. I reckon you're a bigger chance to see Panda triplets. Maybe it proves that a team is more than the sum of its parts.

I agree that the situation you describe doesn't sound fair at all. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens this year.

 

[I like to watch]

Zander, I think you will find that most in the Toyota cup squads are on $5k or thereabouts.
That makes it possible for the chosen ones to be paid in excess of $50k in some cases.
It may seem bizarre,but really most in these squads are there for opportunity.Money is not a factor,for most of them.

 

[Quick Hands]

That was my understanding but Zander is talking 50k

I don't think it's that much. The average kid who fills up the squad is on as little as 5 - no doubt the stars are on more.

 

[Zander]

Zander, I think you will find that most in the Toyota cup squads are on $5k or thereabouts.
That makes it possible for the chosen ones to be paid in excess of $50k in some cases.
It may seem bizarre,but really most in these squads are there for opportunity.Money is not a factor,for most of them.

No not all about money but also the opportunity is that they're directly linked to an NRL club, they train just like the 1st graders do and they're playing proper games weekly. Rugby doesn't have that opportunity, especially as the ARU abolished Super rugby academies. The average wage is 12.5k so some would be on 20-30k I would suspect.

I know personally rugby players who chose the league pathway because it's more enticing straight after school. Rugby needs to offer something similar, it's a big issue in NZ as well with their rugby players coming to Aus NRL clubs. That's why it's vital Aus and NZ set up some kind of u20s competition.