CAS Rugby 2022

[Snort]

Your applying reason and logic here Snort!

Seriously though, whenever discussions come up about this, we all tend to look at it as a Rugby problem, but to the bosses and sportsmasters its not. History, tradition, the role that sport plays in educating young men and a rough equivalence of teams far outweigh any issues of uncompetitive sides or mismatches. It's just not an issue for them. What IS an issue would be the potential loss of GPS/CAS/ISA status.

Its the same issue at play with Italy and to a lesser extent Scotland in the 6 Nations and why they will never vote for a promotion/relegation style tournament. They know that their heads will be on the chopping block first and there are real financial consequences for demotion.

Yes, although I'm not looking at it really as a Rugby issue. Primarily it's a safety issue: one day soon, a skinny winger who wants to study commerce next year is going to collide with a 110kg forward with an NRL contract, and there'll be serious consequences. Secondarily, it's about "the role sport plays in educating young men". Are you preparing them for a career in professional sport? Division 1 for you. Or do you want a scholar who rounds out his life by playing sport for fun and fitness? Off you go to division 3.

Tradition is the main blockage. And Rugby is unique because it's the only collision sport the schools play (except perhaps AFL). It's also the only sport where the professional recruiting begins to occur at the end of school. So there are sound reasons for treating it differently to, say, tennis.

 

[loudnproudscotsdaddy]

Look, I've been banging on about this for years. This post (https://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/schoolboy-rugby-a-modest-proposal/) is almost ten years old, yet nothing changes. But here goes again. The old school groupings are not fit for purpose. This is clearest in the GPS, where no fewer than three schools (TAS, High, Grammar) field their 1st XV in the 3rd XV competition. While Cranbrook and Trinity produce a good side once in a while, St Aloysius has not been competitive for some time, and the CAS competition is usually fought out between Knox, Barker and Waverley.

What's needed is a competition of (at least) three divisions. Rankings should be based primarily on the number of teams fielded, and the attitude of the school towards its Rugby program. Promotion and relegation should be possible if schools improve their programs or want to taper down. It would be healthier for everyone if Barker and Waverley slug it out with Joeys and Riverview in Division 1, while St Aloysius, St Andrews and Grammar play against appropriate opposition in Division 3. Obviously some schools could be unhappy about where they're graded initially, but over time things would sort themselves out. You could still have GPS, CAS, ISA teams... they'd just be picked from different divisions, but that's OK. In any case, the new pathways have rendered those schools representative games less significant than they once were.

A great proposal Snorty!

 

[Lachie Goon]

Look, I've been banging on about this for years. This post (https://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/schoolboy-rugby-a-modest-proposal/) is almost ten years old, yet nothing changes. But here goes again. The old school groupings are not fit for purpose. This is clearest in the GPS, where no fewer than three schools (TAS, High, Grammar) field their 1st XV in the 3rd XV competition. While Cranbrook and Trinity produce a good side once in a while, St Aloysius has not been competitive for some time, and the CAS competition is usually fought out between Knox, Barker and Waverley.

What's needed is a competition of (at least) three divisions. Rankings should be based primarily on the number of teams fielded, and the attitude of the school towards its Rugby program. Promotion and relegation should be possible if schools improve their programs or want to taper down. It would be healthier for everyone if Barker and Waverley slug it out with Joeys and Riverview in Division 1, while St Aloysius, St Andrews and Grammar play against appropriate opposition in Division 3. Obviously some schools could be unhappy about where they're graded initially, but over time things would sort themselves out. You could still have GPS, CAS, ISA teams... they'd just be picked from different divisions, but that's OK. In any case, the new pathways have rendered those schools representative games less significant than they once were.

Hi, snort.
I've got a proposal. What about adding sanctions around scholarships. Your point around Trinity producing good sides once in a while only come about when their scholarships work out. Funny that isn't it. You do not have to look back too far into the past to understand how scholarships have affected the game. Throughout the 2010s each side had a fair run against the other and made the competition far more enjoyable to watch for all. I have been in the schoolboy rugby loop for a while now and often stay quiet but cannot deal with this anymore. In my years of watching the sport, I have seen schools (including Aloysius) winning against schools like Barker and Waverly pre the influx of scholarships. Although this is rare, it is proven it can be done. I have seen all teams train and work towards winning on the weekend, and I can assure you that all schools have the same attitude and desire to win their respective competition.

I have heard wind of schools holding open days for rugby selection which is simply out of the morals and style this game should be played. As a CAS supporter, I have seen schools take up the idea of scholarships in order to keep up with those already accepting them. The reason Aloysius is falling behind is due to their strong morals in keeping their team homegrown. Additionally, it is sad to see boys play in A teams from year seven upwards, building healthy rivalries, to be knocked out by scholarships to play seconds in their last year of schooling.

Any thoughts?

Duty Calls,
Thanks.

 

[DaSchmooze]

Yes, although I'm not looking at it really as a Rugby issue. Primarily it's a safety issue: one day soon, a skinny winger who wants to study commerce next year is going to collide with a 110kg forward with an NRL contract, and there'll be serious consequences. Secondarily, it's about "the role sport plays in educating young men". Are you preparing them for a career in professional sport? Division 1 for you. Or do you want a scholar who rounds out his life by playing sport for fun and fitness? Off you go to division 3.

Tradition is the main blockage. And Rugby is unique because it's the only collision sport the schools play (except perhaps AFL). It's also the only sport where the professional recruiting begins to occur at the end of school. So there are sound reasons for treating it differently to, say, tennis.

Singing to the choir here mate and you're right. It's going to take something catastrophic before change will happen. Sydney High saw the writing on the wall - as did Grammar.

one day soon, a skinny winger who wants to study commerce next year is going to collide with a 110kg forward with an NRL contract, and there'll be serious consequences

Mark the day and time Snort... we'll be coming back to re-visit that quote one day.

 

[Snort]

Hi, snort.
I've got a proposal. What about adding sanctions around scholarships. Your point around Trinity producing good sides once in a while only come about when their scholarships work out. Funny that isn't it. You do not have to look back too far into the past to understand how scholarships have affected the game. Throughout the 2010s each side had a fair run against the other and made the competition far more enjoyable to watch for all. I have been in the schoolboy rugby loop for a while now and often stay quiet but cannot deal with this anymore. In my years of watching the sport, I have seen schools (including Aloysius) winning against schools like Barker and Waverly pre the influx of scholarships. Although this is rare, it is proven it can be done. I have seen all teams train and work towards winning on the weekend, and I can assure you that all schools have the same attitude and desire to win their respective competition.

I have heard wind of schools holding open days for rugby selection which is simply out of the morals and style this game should be played. As a CAS supporter, I have seen schools take up the idea of scholarships in order to keep up with those already accepting them. The reason Aloysius is falling behind is due to their strong morals in keeping their team homegrown. Additionally, it is sad to see boys play in A teams from year seven upwards, building healthy rivalries, to be knocked out by scholarships to play seconds in their last year of schooling.

Any thoughts?

Duty Calls,
Thanks.

Well, your premise is wrong. Trinity last won the Shield in 2011 with a side that had mostly been together since Year 7; Cranbrook's last win was also home-grown. And debating scholarships in this forum leads to trouble. I will say that scholarships aren't really the problem: the problem is that schools who play each other have different ambitions for their Rugby programs. St Aloysius' attitude is absolutely fine, but moral purity is cold comfort when you lose 7-95. St Aloysius should be playing against schools who share their approach and attitude, just as Harvard and Yale enjoy competing in the Ivy League rather than the arms race of some of the more powerful football colleges.

 

[WLF3]

Well, your premise is wrong. Trinity last won the Shield in 2011 with a side that had mostly been together since Year 7; Cranbrook's last win was also home-grown. And debating scholarships in this forum leads to trouble. I will say that scholarships aren't really the problem: the problem is that schools who play each other have different ambitions for their Rugby programs. St Aloysius' attitude is absolutely fine, but moral purity is cold comfort when you lose 7-95. St Aloysius should be playing against schools who share their approach and attitude, just as Harvard and Yale enjoy competing in the Ivy League rather than the arms race of some of the more powerful football colleges.

Spot on Snort, it IS the emphasis that schools place on their Rugby programs, there have been scholarship boys over the recent years but they don't always work out well! It's the vast of majority of boys who train very hard that make the difference. I can tell you that Waves start pre-season training in Dec before the next season starts, I would be pretty sure so do Barker and Knox, and not so the other CAS schools. I suspect it's this type of emphasis that makes the difference year in year out!

 

[TheMedow]

It is quite sad really, the lengths barker will go to win a comp… ruins the integrity of the CAS comp if you ask me!

 

[Snort]

As long as there has been school Rugby, there have been people complaining about the lengths other schools would go to in order to win. I think of the old jokes about Joeys players driving to school with their kids in the back seat...

The point is, schools are there to prepare their students for life. For some kids, that's a future in professional sport. I recall one headmaster saying to me, "I can't tell some of these boys to study harder rather than play sport, because sport is the most viable and profitable career path for them." There's no shame in being a school that assists young sportsmen to pursue that goal while completing their education. The only trouble comes when schools who take that approach are mismatched against schools that don't.

Maybe - maybe - we can be nostalgic for the days when the playing field was slightly more level. But that genie isn't going back into the bottle.

 

[bring back rucking]

Can’t disagree with you Snort, you make a lot of sense. It’s further complicated by the strategies of some schools. Barker for instance are putting out a strong first xv year on year but can only field minimal teams in year 7 and 8 so they can’t be in an all of school tier one arrangement…. The answer lies somewhere in a euro/Heineken cup rugby structure whereby you have various trophies within the season… you play your own association plus an overall div 1 or div 2 depending on where you nominate to play…. Play 10 games of rugby which covers a GPS and CAS title individually, and overall title which may be competed by the top of each division and another title for the teams that choose not to focus on that… it’s all about who you choose to play on any given weekend…. Aloys v grammar etc… waves v joeys… and obviously other permutations

As you say it’s been kicked around here for over 10 years. Attempting to disband associations will never work so it needs to be part of a bigger picture whilst maintaining all the traditions of the single round in your own sandpit

 

[dusk]

Hi, snort.
I've got a proposal. What about adding sanctions around scholarships. Your point around Trinity producing good sides once in a while only come about when their scholarships work out. Funny that isn't it. You do not have to look back too far into the past to understand how scholarships have affected the game. Throughout the 2010s each side had a fair run against the other and made the competition far more enjoyable to watch for all. I have been in the schoolboy rugby loop for a while now and often stay quiet but cannot deal with this anymore. In my years of watching the sport, I have seen schools (including Aloysius) winning against schools like Barker and Waverly pre the influx of scholarships. Although this is rare, it is proven it can be done. I have seen all teams train and work towards winning on the weekend, and I can assure you that all schools have the same attitude and desire to win their respective competition.

I have heard wind of schools holding open days for rugby selection which is simply out of the morals and style this game should be played. As a CAS supporter, I have seen schools take up the idea of scholarships in order to keep up with those already accepting them. The reason Aloysius is falling behind is due to their strong morals in keeping their team homegrown. Additionally, it is sad to see boys play in A teams from year seven upwards, building healthy rivalries, to be knocked out by scholarships to play seconds in their last year of schooling.

Any thoughts?

Duty Calls,
Thanks.

If your whole idea is that schools shouldn't give out scholarships out for rugby why is it that teams like Joeys that are pretty much all homegrown (correct me if I'm wrong) constantly do well? Maybe it's an issue with the coaches and the school's overall enthusiasm for schoolboy rugby.

 

[yoursinrugby]

Totally agree Dusk
I think a bunch of boarders playing every night makes for great ball in hand skills
Not all great players but great ball skills and playing with and for their mates

 

[Snort]

My proposal is that the first (though not only) criterion for the divisional split would be the number of teams each school fields. That would very quickly reduce the practice of recruiting a glittering 1st XV with nothing behind it.

 

[Snort]

If your whole idea is that schools shouldn't give out scholarships out for rugby why is it that teams like Joeys that are pretty much all homegrown (correct me if I'm wrong) constantly do well? Maybe it's an issue with the coaches and the school's overall enthusiasm for schoolboy rugby.

I never said scholarships were wrong, but this is not the place to discuss that issue.

 

[Snort]

Attempting to disband associations will never work so it needs to be part of a bigger picture whilst maintaining all the traditions of the single round in your own sandpit

But why? The Associations are disbanding themselves. Three GPS schools can't field sides in the 1st XV competition.

 

[Snort]

Anyway, end of rant. I'll be back in ten years making the same point!

 

[Joker]

If your whole idea is that schools shouldn't give out scholarships out for rugby why is it that teams like Joeys that are pretty much all homegrown (correct me if I'm wrong) constantly do well? Maybe it's an issue with the coaches and the school's overall enthusiasm for schoolboy rugby.

At Joeys it is cultural. You go there, you play rugby. Joeys this year has ONE 13's football team. The rest play rugby

 

[Snort]

So, this weekend.

I'm predicting Waverley to beat Oakhill, though not without a fight. I sense Barker may get home over Riverview. Knox and Newington will be tight, but I lean towards Knox. Cranbrook will be too good for Kinross Wollaroi, and St Aloysius should have enough to beat St Gregorys. Trinity, I'm afraid, are in for a tough day at the office against Shore.

 

[Snort]

At Joeys it is cultural. You go there, you play rugby. Joeys this year has ONE 13's football team. The rest play rugby

Yeah, it's different. I knew someone who taught there for a bit, and he said everyone in the staff room knew all about who was in what team and how they were playing. And he meant, everyone. Another sign: when you went there to play as just an ordinary 1st XV player, it wasn't just that your opponents knew who you were, the kids sitting in the grandstand knew. It's the fabric of the place.

 

[Joker]

Yeah, it's different. I knew someone who taught there for a bit, and he said everyone in the staff room knew all about who was in what team and how they were playing. And he meant, everyone. Another sign: when you went there to play as just an ordinary 1st XV player, it wasn't just that your opponents knew who you were, the kids sitting in the grandstand knew. It's the fabric of the place.

As a parent of the College the boys just live and breath the sport. Everyone knows the teams and who should be there. Occasionally you get some kid whinging about selections but the cohort put them in their place. In an age you have an A team, followed by a very close B team and about 4 teams who are pretty equal. Even a G, H team have pride and good coaches. The staff have been told, "everyone matters". It is cool to watch 1st XV players running water for a 13F game coached by the Headmaster.

 

[Union on Top]

The fixtures for this weekend are:

Waverly vs Oakhill
St Gregs vs St Aloys
Barker vs Riverview
Knox vs Newington
Trinity vs Shore
Kinross vs Cranbrook

What are everyone's picks?

(WC vs Oak) I think Waverly will comfortably beat Oakhill
(SGC vs SAC) I'm pretty split on this one but I'll give Gregs the win
(BC vs SIC) This will be interesting as Barker is without Katoa, but I still think Barker will win
(KGS vs NC) I think this will be a close one, but my pick is Newington
(TGS vs Shore) Shore should win this one comfortably
(KWS vs CS) Cranbrook will win this one with ease