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CAS Rugby 2022

Snort

Trevor Allan (34)
I assume that GPS has reverted to home-and-away because its competition was relatively even this year.

But it's bad news for the CAS. With the greatest of respect for St Aloysius, Knox would gain more by losing (say) 27-29 to St Josephs than by beating St Aloysius 89-7 twice in a season. And it would be better for the game.
 

Snort

Trevor Allan (34)
You don’t think Newington, Scot’s or Waverley don’t have boys with similar backgrounds too? ..cause they definitely do !!
they also have catchment areas that compete with trinity (I see the Scot’s bus go through Rockdale and san Souci on my way home from work ) … The difference is theses schools rugby culture is historically very strong, and they continue to work at keep it that way.
Well, it's also the reason why Newington fields fewer teams than many other GPS schools.
 

bring back rucking

Larry Dwyer (12)
I assume that GPS has reverted to home-and-away because its competition was relatively even this year.

But it's bad news for the CAS. With the greatest of respect for St Aloysius, Knox would gain more by losing (say) 27-29 to St Josephs than by beating St Aloysius 89-7 twice in a season. And it would be better for the game.
I’d agree with that. And with alloys withdrawing from 14a and 15a and only fielding 9 teams in total it makes it very difficult to find games for teams (amplified now with the removal of GPS for the entire season)… during the CAS rounds this year a couple of knox age group teams had a “bye” due to the lack of school sides available… hard to grow the game when you don’t get one
 

DaSchmooze

Jimmy Flynn (14)
I’d agree with that. And with alloys withdrawing from 14a and 15a and only fielding 9 teams in total it makes it very difficult to find games for teams (amplified now with the removal of GPS for the entire season)… during the CAS rounds this year a couple of knox age group teams had a “bye” due to the lack of school sides available… hard to grow the game when you don’t get one
There are so many easy solutions to this problem but they all hinge around restructuring the CAS/ISA competitions. I want to believe that all stakeholders have what's best for their boys and the game at heart (engaging with a consulting firm is an excellent start) but, cynically, I just dont see it happening. I want to believe...

Imagine if you're in the Bs at Aloys, or Grammar or SBHS. What incentive is there in playing knowing full well you're about to get pounded each week. It must take a Herculean effort from the coaches of these teams to get them up each week. Wouldn't it be better to know that as a player, and a team, you stood a reasonable chance of winning some games? And wouldn't that hope and positivity then help to rebuild your Rugby program?
 

Tame Brumby

Stan Wickham (3)
I’d agree with that. And with alloys withdrawing from 14a and 15a and only fielding 9 teams in total it makes it very difficult to find games for teams (amplified now with the removal of GPS for the entire season)… during the CAS rounds this year a couple of knox age group teams had a “bye” due to the lack of school sides available… hard to grow the game when you don’t get one

Totally. By way of example with forfeits, byes and washouts the Knox 14As only played 7 games this year. Tough to grow a programme when you are playing half a normal schedule.
 

Eyes and Ears

Dick Tooth (41)
There are so many easy solutions to this problem but they all hinge around restructuring the CAS/ISA competitions. I want to believe that all stakeholders have what's best for their boys and the game at heart (engaging with a consulting firm is an excellent start) but, cynically, I just dont see it happening. I want to believe...

Imagine if you're in the Bs at Aloys, or Grammar or SBHS. What incentive is there in playing knowing full well you're about to get pounded each week. It must take a Herculean effort from the coaches of these teams to get them up each week. Wouldn't it be better to know that as a player, and a team, you stood a reasonable chance of winning some games? And wouldn't that hope and positivity then help to rebuild your Rugby program?
Grammar and High already play lesser teams. In fact, Grammar in the younger agre groups tend to have more large wins (which isn't ideal either) than large losses against the GPS schools.
 

Snort

Trevor Allan (34)
There are so many easy solutions to this problem but they all hinge around restructuring the CAS/ISA competitions. I want to believe that all stakeholders have what's best for their boys and the game at heart (engaging with a consulting firm is an excellent start) but, cynically, I just dont see it happening. I want to believe...

Imagine if you're in the Bs at Aloys, or Grammar or SBHS. What incentive is there in playing knowing full well you're about to get pounded each week. It must take a Herculean effort from the coaches of these teams to get them up each week. Wouldn't it be better to know that as a player, and a team, you stood a reasonable chance of winning some games? And wouldn't that hope and positivity then help to rebuild your Rugby program?
It would also give the boys better memories of Rugby. Let's face it, 90% of kids who play Rugby at school never play afterwards. But if they have positive memories of the game, they become the next generation of supporters, who turn up at games, support the Waratahs, encourage their kids to play.... Rugby needs them just as much as it needs the tiny handful of players who reach the top.
 

WLF3

Ward Prentice (10)
It wouldn’t surprise me if GPS want this and it has nothing to do with CAS. I hope the CAS schools are able to find games for everyone which are competitive (and safe) for all players each week in a H&A format.
Here's my view on all this should it be true, and I believe it to be, having heard it directly from a GPS Sports Master ( so not Waverley).

There has been an abundance of talk across the various sites about the lack of direction within our schools program when it comes to developing a really strong schools structure that ultimately could/would flow on to higher levels, a la the New Zealand schools model.
Parallel to this is the lack of enjoyment mismatches provide, the dwindling number of participants, the safety factor for boys etc...
So the system clearly has major issues that need addressing.

As it stands our Sydney schools system today has basically 3 tiny associations with 6 teams in each, GPS,CAS,ISA, and a weak CHS system, in comparison to years gone by.

The best, smartest and most logical ideas put forward from many, have outlined the restructuring of this system to a divisional system based on team numbers, the strength of programs/performance within schools etc, and a fluid promotion/relegation system between the divisions.

ALL of this could have been worked through, tested, and implemented WHILST allowing the various associations to still run their own association competition within this system.

The GPS argument will be that the other associations don't provide enough teams to match up, and that is true team by team, but it has been worked through over the last 6 years, so it can, and has, be done. Even the GPS schools don't match up evenly.
If that's a bigger issue than the benefits of all the opportunities put forward, then let's just give up.

Over the last 6 years, the top CAS and ISA schools have been very competitive against the GPS schools. Perhaps even winning more games than the GPS schools, so the perceived ability disparity has been put to bed once and for all.

The remaining issue is the Age groups, again, I don't think we are putting man on the moon, so a solution is there.

NOW, the CAS has a major problem.

The truth is that in the age groups, unless the other schools strengthen their programs, then Knox and Waverley will dominant typically year after year with massive wins from the 13s - 16s. Yes there will be the odd strong team from the other schools but probably nothing sustainable.
Barker these days are only strong from the 16s-Opens. Should this happen, then more and more boys will leave rugby, and having to play a home and away system will only accelerate this issue.

The other major problem is the complete mismatch of teams numbers, eg Alos have 9 teams, and Trinity not many more.
So some sort of restructure with the IAS schools etc is a must IMO, and happy for that, given they have been wonderful and keen to play the CAS schools!

There existed an opportunity, once the GPS schools moved away from a home and away format, to explore and see if some other schools were actually competitive enough to compete, and over 6 years it was proven that they were. So it was proven that there were sufficient teams of relative equal ability, to conceive a tier 1 and 2 system between all the schools in these 3 associations, and that includes SBHS, Grammar, TAS etc. This could have enabled a planning process to proceed and move to the next stage and develop a really robust tiered competition possibly of 10+ teams per division.

Instead, it appears we may be about to retreat back to the dark myopic old days where development of the game, at an important schools level, and the fun and testing of teams against multiple schools, is less important than sticking to an old school tradition. WOW!

What a shame.....
 
Last edited:

DaSchmooze

Jimmy Flynn (14)
It would also give the boys better memories of Rugby. Let's face it, 90% of kids who play Rugby at school never play afterwards. But if they have positive memories of the game, they become the next generation of supporters, who turn up at games, support the Waratahs, encourage their kids to play.... Rugby needs them just as much as it needs the tiny handful of players who reach the top.
Exactly. They become Rugby people as much as they are Rugby players
 

Albi

Peter Burge (5)
Here's my view on all this should it be true, and I believe it to be, having heard it directly from a GPS Sports Master ( so not Waverley).

There has been an abundance of talk across the various sites about the lack of direction within our schools program when it comes to developing a really strong schools structure that ultimately could/would flow on to higher levels, a la the New Zealand schools model.
Parallel to this is the lack of enjoyment mismatches provide, the dwindling number of participants, the safety factor for boys etc...
So the system clearly has major issues that need addressing.

As it stands our Sydney schools system today has basically 3 tiny associations with 6 teams in each, GPS,CAS,ISA, and a weak CHS system, in comparison to years gone by.

The best, smartest and most logical ideas put forward from many, have outlined the restructuring of this system to a divisional system based on team numbers, the strength of programs/performance within schools etc, and a fluid promotion/relegation system between the divisions.

ALL of this could have been worked through, tested, and implemented WHILST allowing the various associations to still run their own association competition within this system.

The GPS argument will be that the other associations don't provide enough teams to match up, and that is true team by team, but it has been worked through over the last 6 years, so it can, and has, be done. Even the GPS schools don't match up evenly.
If that's a bigger issue than the benefits of all the opportunities put forward, then let's just give up.

Over the last 6 years, the top CAS and ISA schools have been very competitive against the GPS schools. Perhaps even winning more games than the GPS schools, so the perceived ability disparity has been put to bed once and for all.

The remaining issue is the Age groups, again, I don't think we are putting man on the moon, so a solution is there.

NOW, the CAS has a major problem.

The truth is that in the age groups, unless the other schools strengthen their programs, then Knox and Waverley will dominant typically year after year with massive wins from the 13s - 16s. Yes there will be the odd strong team from the other schools but probably nothing sustainable.
Barker these days are only strong from the 16s-Opens. Should this happen, then more and more boys will leave rugby, and having to play a home and away system will only accelerate this issue.

The other major problem is the complete mismatch of teams numbers, eg Alos have 9 teams, and Trinity not many more.
So some sort of restructure with the IAS schools etc is a must IMO, and happy for that, given they have been wonderful and keen to play the CAS schools!

There existed an opportunity, once the GPS schools moved away from a home and away format, to explore and see if some other schools were actually competitive enough to compete, and over 6 years it was proven that they were. So it was proven that there were sufficient teams of relative equal ability, to conceive a tier 1 and 2 system between all the schools in these 3 associations, and that includes SBHS, Grammar, TAS etc. This could have enabled a planning process to proceed and move to the next stage and develop a really robust tiered competition possibly of 10+ teams per division.

Instead, it appears we may be about to retreat back to the dark myopic old days where development of the game, at an important schools level, and the fun and testing of teams against multiple schools, is less important than sticking to an old school tradition. WOW!

What a shame.....
Like this. I think The Kpi’s for the people organising it should be: 1) close scorelines, and 2) # of games. Teams winning by 40-50 shouldn’t happen.
At least 1 week of the CAS comp had the knox As not getting a game and the Cs containing about 45 boys. Some weeks only the As and Bs got games…..and it’s not like the Knox rugby program is super strong. Ridiculous! It’s likely to get worse without GPS unless they can get some sort of CAS/ISA comp going. Hope they work something out.
 

DaSchmooze

Jimmy Flynn (14)
Like this. I think The Kpi’s for the people organising it should be: 1) close scorelines, and 2) # of games. Teams winning by 40-50 shouldn’t happen.
At least 1 week of the CAS comp had the knox As not getting a game and the Cs containing about 45 boys. Some weeks only the As and Bs got games…..and it’s not like the Knox rugby program is super strong. Ridiculous! It’s likely to get worse without GPS unless they can get some sort of CAS/ISA comp going. Hope they work something out.
How far down did Knox reach in the opens Albi? 5ths, 6ths? Is Knox the largets in terms of total team numbers?
 

Albi

Peter Burge (5)
Knox goes to 8ths with enough players to go to 10ths but can’t get games for that many boys so a loaded bench of 7s and 8s less injuries / absences
the ‘injuries/absences’ list in opens also becomes the ‘who doesn’t want to play’ list when playing schools with few teams.
 

Albi

Peter Burge (5)
How far down did Knox reach in the opens Albi? 5ths, 6ths? Is Knox the largets in terms of total team numbers?
Answered above. It’s sounds like I’m whinging but I want to support it. I understand the challenges for the schools of getting as many teams games as possible…..Field availability especially with all the rain, trying to match competitive teams, busing boarders to all parts of Sydney…..just hope best efforts are going to be made next year without GPS.
They should speak to joeys as they are trying to organise games for a very large number of teams. Nothing wrong with trying to learn from another school for the good of the sport. Someone told me a while back the cost of busing joeys boys all around Sydney every Sat and organising food, drinks etc. Can’t remember the number but I remember it was shockingly huge.
 

DaSchmooze

Jimmy Flynn (14)
There'd be a way around it for CAS/ISA if they were willing to be flexible. I could see a situation where in Term 2, weeks 1-3 devoted to inter association games, at week 4 GPS trots off for their season with there being another 3 inter CAS/ISA games (taking you up to week 6) with then both ISA and CAS seasons starting in week 7. I could see a scenario where two of the smaller programs in ISA (say Gregs and Kinross) could combine to take on Knox so that there would be close to the same numbers of teams playing. Kinross plays odd teams and Gregs even teams etc.

Not as clear cut as what we've had but a potential work around.
 

Crashy

Cyril Towers (30)
Not sure if it matters but Barker go down to the 6ths and I think Cranbrook do as well. No idea re the other schools.
 

Flavio

Sydney Middleton (9)
Size of the school will also effect the number of teams. Based on the number of years and students Knox has nearly twice the pool of kids to draw from than Alos, Cranbrook and Barker (I know its a rough calculation)
Alos 1277 3-12
Brkr 1794 K-12
Crbk 1608 K-12
Knx 3123 K-12
Trnty 2196 K-12
Wvly 1491 5-12
 

WLF3

Ward Prentice (10)
Size of the school will also effect the number of teams. Based on the number of years and students Knox has nearly twice the pool of kids to draw from than Alos, Cranbrook and Barker (I know its a rough calculation)
Alos 1277 3-12
Brkr 1794 K-12
Crbk 1608 K-12
Knx 3123 K-12
Trnty 2196 K-12
Wvly 1491 5-12
Flav and gents, here are the actual team numbers by school.

Knox 26
Waves 23
Barker 19
Cranbrook 17
Trinity 13
Aloys 9

So there is a very wide spread, which logically also explains the performance strength between the schools.

Interested to see the same analysis for the ISA schools, over to the ISA guys.
 

bring back rucking

Larry Dwyer (12)
Size of the school will also effect the number of teams. Based on the number of years and students Knox has nearly twice the pool of kids to draw from than Alos, Cranbrook and Barker (I know its a rough calculation)
Alos 1277 3-12
Brkr 1794 K-12
Crbk 1608 K-12
Knx 3123 K-12
Trnty 2196 K-12
Wvly 1491 5-12
These numbers are deceiving. It really should be about senior school numbers for rugby. The Knox numbers include the large Knox Prep which is 750 kids plus Wahroonga prep which is a co-ed k-6 school under the Knox umbrella which has 260 and 2100 in the senior school
 
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