Hurricanes v Reds Sat 23rd April

[TSR]

I disagree. I do think we are getting better

At the very minimum I think it is premature to put a line through things 1 week in.

Anyway - I’ll wait and see how things play out over the next few weeks.

 

[Derpus]

I do completely get the dissatisfaction with the current set up.

What I don’t get is what the obvious better option is.

If we want the Aussie teams then fine, ditch two teams and only have 3 in Super rugby. We’ll be more competitive and have more money to retain key players, and at the same time we’ll pretty much guarantee we’ll kill any decent level of growth/development in a couple of key areas.

If we just want the Wallabies to be competitive now then fine, go open slather on OS players. Then enjoy the next 2-3 years. Even with an open slather policy I can’t see how we get above 2-3 in the World presently (being optimistic) and, IMO, it’ll pretty much guarantee we’ll be outside the top 5 and, almost certainly, the top 10, in the next 6-7 yrs. Serious pro rugby in Australia will wither and die. We’ll get a few players still come through - similiar to basketball & NFL, but we certainly won’t be better than we are now at a national level.

What we need is to give WA & Vic time to build their local pathways. The drain on our players isn’t going to reduce, so we need to widen the funnel. And WA & Vic have already made significant improvements - we should be aware of that. They have some way to go, but they are bringing local talent through. People might think this will take too long, but I reflect on the fact that 4 yrs go we struggled to fill three back row jerseys with test level players, and our choices at 1, 2, 4, 5, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14 & 15 all involved trade off decisions on players who couldn’t competently do all the key parts of their role description. Qld adopted a scorched Earth policy, NSW soon followed suite and both are in considerably better positions now then they were 3 yrs ago - even if they both have some way to go.

Personally I think the current set up is like Democracy. The worst possible system. Except all the others. It may well not survive, but I don’t see how that will be a positive.

Just cut the Rebels and remove any cap on the Force.

 

[TSR]

Yeh but working with nzru ain’t helping. I actually don’t know what the alternative is but I think increasingly we just can’t seem to get nzru and Rugby Australia to work together to create a favourable competition fans want so we may at some stage be forced to do our own thing. Sadly when that happens that may be when rugby in Australia is even less relevant which hard to believe when already is today (as judged by national media coverage cf nrl and afl etc.

Well - we know NZRU wanted less teams. And I completely understand their position, even if I don’t like some of their actions.

I also completely understand RAs position of digging in.

Maybe they both also reached the conclusion this was the best option available.

I do think that the Force (given Twiggy’s backing) should be given some incentive/dispensation to go above the cap to import talent - particularly if they can bring a couple of Aussie’s home. But I still think in the longer run they are better off developing their own.

 

[TSR]

Just cut the Rebels and remove any cap on the Force.

Isn’t there something like a dozen Victoria raised players now playing super rugby, plus a group more in their squad. 10 years ago what was that number. 3 or 4?

Look - I know you think we should just go open slather. Personally I think that is the worst possible option - so I think we just agree to disagree.

This is all well off the thread topic so, even though it is a really important discussion I’ll leave it there.

 

[Derpus]

I don't necessarily want it, I just think its inevitable. Actually, I'd much rather all our players were here.

But yeah - off topic.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I disagree. I do think we are getting better

At the very minimum I think it is premature to put a line through things 1 week in.

Anyway - I’ll wait and see how things play out over the next few weeks.

Yeh I am throwing my toys out of the pram but I guess I don’t believe anymore this competition the way it is set up can ever work. Off topic and hence will leave it there.

 

[dru]

We are reigniting “shrink to greatness” on GGR?What an utter crock.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

We are reigniting “shrink to greatness” on GGR?What an utter crock.

Yep the shrink to greatness has been great model all followed by all the other footy codes in Australia (lol).

 

[Marce]

I've loved super rugby, but not since 2014 or so when the standard of Australian players' skills has just been steadily decreasing.

I don't think so, the standard is ok, the deep is the big problem. If you retain most of the Aussies that are playing in Europe/Japan/USA you would have stronger Super Rugby teams. The issue is that there are new rugby markets for players. 10 years ago the Japanese market wasn't too powerful in terms of money and also now you have European nations looking for Super Rugby players who could be elegible in few years for their nations.

At the same time, Super Rugby in Australia in decreasing in attendances, sponsors and supporters. It's an explosive cocktail

 

[Dan54]

What a crock. This whole super rugby competition is a classic example of a rubbish business model as not designed with the end customers wants and needs. I now want to see oz sides destroyed by kiwi sides as this is a rubbish competition designed by muppets with outside competing interests. Hence prefer to see its destruction accelerated as simply not a sustainable product. This whole competition is a disgrace and best thing Rugby Australia can do is look for funding opportunities to remove themselves from this and look at something with a governance model that allows for a better pro rugby business model.

i feel I am being forced to take up another interest as I keep being dished up a rubbish product year on year with super rugby. I am pretty pissed off with how this product has been so damaged.

Mate I watched Super rugby from beginning, it was an incredibly popular and well supported comp, and I heard absolutely noone say it was a rubbish business model etc, and I went to games all the time where grounds were full, the comp got ruined by expansion etc.
If full grounds and great tv ratings are not what end customers want, and not a good business model, I got no idea what is, and bet you don't either.
If it is a rubbish model now , perhaps look what was changed from when it was an extremely popular and competitive competition, when it helped both NZ and Australia produce top test teams to further promote the game in both countries.
Then the greed set in, countries wanted more teams,( instead of building structures below to strengthen game). I lived in Australia from 97-2020, and I and most Aus rugby folk I talk with were begging almost for decent pathways in Aus whether through NRC type thing or a top club comp with Sydney, Bris clubs etc.

( and for Drew I only replied in this thread because RN quoted me and it is polite to respond)

 

[Dan54]

Just cut the Rebels and remove any cap on the Force.

That is probably a bloody unpopular but real sensible suggestion Derps.
But don't just cut Rebels have a plan to bring players from Vic into pathways. (and play some Brumbies etc games in Melbourne)

Though I will add I think 3 of Aus teams at moment seem to me to be playing improved rugby this year, and will I bet win more games than last year, and same next year. By all means call me an idiot at end of season if I wrong, but I reckon they better.

 

[Dan54]

Yep the shrink to greatness has been great model all followed by all the other footy codes in Australia (lol).

Yep the expansion by all other codes in Australia has only been by teams that have proved they have finances and player pathways to compete don't they?

 

[RugbyReg]

Yep the expansion by all other codes in Australia has only been by teams that have proved they have finances and player pathways to compete don't they?

Or at least it comes alongside massive investment in the region by the sport itself.

Oh and done by sports who don’t have a national team to really worry about.

 

[DELETE ACCOUNT]

Teams will exploit that, make a tiny pass at the start etc. and then if you start saying ‘pass must be longer than 5m’ you get into more intricate rules.

Only way to fix it without adding more complexity is to dumb it down… as in if the maul is stopped once, it’s over.

How about driving mauls can travel no further than 4 metres

 

[TSR]

I know stats aren’t everything - but according to ESPN Stats Harry Wilson topped the runs for Qld with 17 runs and 68 meters (plus 4 offloads) and topped the tackle count with 15 and no misses.

Other notables were Tupou with 9 runs for 20, and 5 tackles with none missed; McReight (9 runs, 61 metres, 14 tackles 1 miss) & Hamish Stewart who, once again, made 100% of his tackles (9 made - not such a big number, but week in week out tackling at 100% is pretty impressive).

Across the board there were a number of good & not so good performances but what I take heart in is that there wasn’t a blow out in missed tackles - although we still lost and there will be tougher tests. But it tells me that physically we are in the right space - which we weren’t last year.

Fix our lineout and our discipline and some of our decision making in attack.

 

[liquor box]

That is probably a bloody unpopular but real sensible suggestion Derps.
But don't just cut Rebels have a plan to bring players from Vic into pathways. (and play some Brumbies etc games in Melbourne)

Though I will add I think 3 of Aus teams at moment seem to me to be playing improved rugby this year, and will I bet win more games than last year, and same next year. By all means call me an idiot at end of season if I wrong, but I reckon they better.

Maybe to recruit or retain players we do need to allow the Force and Twiggy to spend what they want on their team, but have a "luxury tax" where for every dollar above the salary cap means that they have to pay a set amount of money to the other Australian teams that they can also use.

 

[Dan54]

Maybe to recruit or retain players we do need to allow the Force and Twiggy to spend what they want on their team, but have a "luxury tax" where for every dollar above the salary cap means that they have to pay a set amount of money to the other Australian teams that they can also use.

I rteally like that idea lb, if money can be found to buy in overseas players even if Force or Rebels can do similar to NH comp, have star players that don't go under salary cap. The advantge is local players are playing along side these players to learn.

 

[wamberal]

Private equity is one answer.

 

[TSR]

I rteally like that idea lb, if money can be found to buy in overseas players even if Force or Rebels can do similar to NH comp, have star players that don't go under salary cap. The advantge is local players are playing along side these players to learn.

Not sure how Twiggy will feel about it though.

We are probably already being a bit presumptuous too assume Twiggy will dip into the coffers to help address the talent gap for the Force. Expecting him to stump up further for the rest of the comp might be a step too far.

 

[wamberal]

Not sure how Twiggy will feel about it though.

We are probably already being a bit presumptuous too assume Twiggy will dip into the coffers to help address the talent gap for the Force. Expecting him to stump up further for the rest of the comp might be a step too far.

Yep, poor blighter is down to his last 50 billion or so.