Hurricanes v Reds Sat 23rd April

[Wallaby Man]

I would like to add that McDermott made a comment I thought was very telling in aftermatch interview. He said Reds can get away with making mistakes against other Aus teams, and not really against kiwi teams, and that sums it up, if you had a comp where you can bumble through and still win matches, it is never going to improve your rugby, and will refelct in teams at higher level.

And what was Aus excuse for the 1.5 seasons we went 40-0 against kiwi sides in the regular playing them format?

Reality is Aus sides as terrible last night playing kiwi sides as they have been since 2014. Plus last year there was the equal most Aus v Kiwi games ever in a season so they can’t say they don’t play them enough.

I honestly just think some of the comments are based on not been able to say anything else, otherwise you’re perceived as been weak.

 

[Dan54]

Plenty comes back to the need for a normal competition draw, not all aus teams than all kiwi teams. Much more opportunity to learn the lessons early, know what the standard is and build through the season, rather than being stunned at the end. Will be interesting to see how it goes next year with the draw hopefully not warped to meet covid border rules.

Yep Wilson, each country getting stuck without a variety of opponents to adjust to, you get stuck playing one way and get's very hard to change. I reckon you will see better teams like Redsetc winning as they get towards end of season, will get used to pace etc

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I would like to add that McDermott made a comment I thought was very telling in aftermatch interview. He said Reds can get away with making mistakes against other Aus teams, and not really against kiwi teams, and that sums it up, if you had a comp where you can bumble through and still win matches, it is never going to improve your rugby, and will refelct in teams at higher level.

But you ain’t going to get many fans to games or hence players choosing rugby over other codes in oz by being part of a lopsided competition.

Dan54 unless something changes this competition is not sustainable (for oz teams).

 

[gel]

I agree that is the problem - but I can’t see in any possible way how that is a good solution. We need to get better, no doubt, but what your proposing would kill professional rugby in Australia.

Edit: not to mention dismantle all our current pathways. We may all have different thoughts on how well our pathways are going, but at least there is currently pathways in place.

Yep. I didn't say I'd like it.

But the outcome for the wallabies would be infinitely better.

*Edit*: I've loved super rugby, but not since 2014 or so when the standard of Australian players' skills has just been steadily decreasing.

 

[Ignoto]

That right there is the problem.

What we should be doing is dismantling super rugby altogether and feeding *all* our top players and coaches to professional playing countries elsewhere.

But clubs around the world are starting to implement foreign quotas. There won't be enough spots to cover the 30-40 players you'd want in these spots.

Last night wasn't a talent problem, the Reds blew the Hurricanes away in the first 25 minutes.

Take away Julian's "deliberate knock back" and Vest's stupid tackle attempt and the Reds should have gone into the half 14-17 points ahead. However two inexperienced players in the Reds made two poor decisions and the Hurricanes capitalised.

Add in poor handling and gifting the Hurricanes Territory as Jordie has a massive boot on him from penalty kicks and the Reds were their own worse enemy.

 

[Adam84]

But you ain’t going to get many fans to games or hence players choosing rugby over other codes in oz by being part of a lopsided competition.

Dan54 unless something changes this competition is not sustainable (for oz teams).

It’s an odd argument isn’t it, the evidence is that the Aussie teams are consistently weaker then the kiwis due to a variety of factors(money, coaching, grass roots etc). To claim they’ll close the gap as the seasons moves on ignores what has already occurred 2-3 years ago.

Either mechanisms are introduced to make its a healthy competition where all teams are competitive, or Aussies go it alone with the Drua.

 

[Derpus]

Classic GAGR freeze frame there, isolating just what member wants to see. One blokes head hit the turf just after this pic, the others did not. Red vs yellow. Ref Gardner got it right.

Starting to think players almost have a professional obligation to take one for the team and hollywood their head to the turf for a second just to draw the red.

Is that because one bloke stuck his arm out and one didn't?

I wouldn't be that unhappy with a straight red for anything beyond horizontal now they are only for 20 minutes. Its pretty fucking stupid.

 

[Dan54]

But you ain’t going to get many fans to games or hence players choosing rugby over other codes in oz by being part of a lopsided competition.

Dan54 unless something changes this competition is not sustainable (for oz teams).

You not going to get players choosing rugby over other codes if they see all the best players heading overseas to get better money. I understand what your solution is RN, just get kiwi teams to come over there and pad out teams and replace the players that are getting paid more elsewhere?
Or I know lets just send them straight to Japan or wherever.
I don't know the answer, yours is to get NZ to send players seemingly and money (you know make RA NZ's social welfare beneficiaries), mine is for Aus to get better, others is for Aus to have as many teams as they can actually afford and are good enough (you know like NRL etc that a few keep quoting). Gel's is to send all good players off shore to get paid etc etc.
Regardless this is a match thread, so let's not get into that here.

I will add , I have not heard the same comments from any of mates involved in rugby in Australia, so have never reall heard them suggest anything but what I have said, Aus teams need to and will improve.

 

[gel]

But clubs around the world are starting to implement foreign quotas. There won't be enough spots to cover the 30-40 players you'd want in these spots.

Last night wasn't a talent problem, the Reds blew the Hurricanes away in the first 25 minutes.

Take away Julian's "deliberate knock back" and Vest's stupid tackle attempt and the Reds should have gone into the half 14-17 points ahead. However two inexperienced players in the Reds made two poor decisions and the Hurricanes capitalised.

Add in poor handling and gifting the Hurricanes Territory as Jordie has a massive boot on him from penalty kicks and the Reds were their own worse enemy.

The best and brightest of ours will still make it in all the other country's competitions. Talent is *not* the issue. And talent identification from professional organisations around the world will still identify the exceptional school kids and premier rugby players from across Australia.

Training is the issue (and that has *nothing* to do with our coaches either - I think they are really great).

 

[liquor box]

It’s an odd argument isn’t it, the evidence is that the Aussie teams are consistently weaker then the kiwis due to a variety of factors(money, coaching, grass roots etc). To claim they’ll close the gap as the seasons moves on ignores what has already occurred 2-3 years ago.

Either mechanisms are introduced to make its a healthy competition where all teams are competitive, or Aussies go it alone with the Drua.

It is odd that it is still an argument.

The cold hard fact is that we are simply not as good as NZ at Rugby. We are not as good as Brazil at Soccer, USA at Basketball etc

We accept similar situations in other sports and can handle it, we need to accept it for Rugby and just get on with doing our best against superior teams.

 

[Derpus]

The best and brightest of ours will still make it in all the other country's competitions. Talent is *not* the issue. And talent identification from professional organisations around the world will still identify the exceptional school kids and premier rugby players from across Australia.

Training is the issue (and that has *nothing* to do with our coaches either - I think they are really great).

Are you alluding to the RUPA agreement thingo?

 

[drewprint]

You not going to get players choosing rugby over other codes if they see all the best players heading overseas to get better money. I understand what your solution is RN, just get kiwi teams to come over there and pad out teams and replace the players that are getting paid more elsewhere?
Or I know lets just send them straight to Japan or wherever.
I don't know the answer, yours is to get NZ to send players seemingly and money (you know make Rugby Australia NZ's social welfare beneficiaries), mine is for Aus to get better, others is for Aus to have as many teams as they can actually afford and are good enough (you know like NRL etc that a few keep quoting). Gel's is to send all good players off shore to get paid etc etc.
Regardless this is a match thread, so let's not get into that here.

I will add , I have not heard the same comments from any of mates involved in rugby in Australia, so have never reall heard them suggest anything but what I have said, Aus teams need to and will improve.

Classic Dan word salad. The one accurate thing you’ve said is that this is a match thread so not fit for this kind of conversation.

 

[gel]

It is odd that it is still an argument.

The cold hard fact is that we are simply not as good as NZ at Rugby. We are not as good as Brazil at Soccer, USA at Basketball etc

We accept similar situations in other sports and can handle it, we need to accept it for Rugby and just get on with doing our best against superior teams.

Maybe you are right, maybe we should lower our expectations and settle for the pretty substandard performances we trundled out for better part of 30 years between 1980 and 2010. /s

I would posit that we have never been competitive with the elite in soccer or basketball. We absolutely have been competitive with the elite in Rugby and done so over an extended period of time - therefore it is a completely different argument.

Depower RUPA and all this goes away.;

 

[Dan54]

Classic Dan word salad. The one accurate thing you’ve said is that this is a match thread so not fit for this kind of conversation.

I never brought it up Drew, the usual suspects did. and you know I right why your prissy little comment.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

You not going to get players choosing rugby over other codes if they see all the best players heading overseas to get better money. I understand what your solution is RN, just get kiwi teams to come over there and pad out teams and replace the players that are getting paid more elsewhere?
Or I know lets just send them straight to Japan or wherever.
I don't know the answer, yours is to get NZ to send players seemingly and money (you know make Rugby Australia NZ's social welfare beneficiaries), mine is for Aus to get better, others is for Aus to have as many teams as they can actually afford and are good enough (you know like NRL etc that a few keep quoting). Gel's is to send all good players off shore to get paid etc etc.
Regardless this is a match thread, so let's not get into that here.

I will add , I have not heard the same comments from any of mates involved in rugby in Australia, so have never reall heard them suggest anything but what I have said, Aus teams need to and will improve.

What a crock. This whole super rugby competition is a classic example of a rubbish business model as not designed with the end customers wants and needs. I now want to see oz sides destroyed by kiwi sides as this is a rubbish competition designed by muppets with outside competing interests. Hence prefer to see its destruction accelerated as simply not a sustainable product. This whole competition is a disgrace and best thing RA can do is look for funding opportunities to remove themselves from this and look at something with a governance model that allows for a better pro rugby business model.

i feel I am being forced to take up another interest as I keep being dished up a rubbish product year on year with super rugby. I am pretty pissed off with how this product has been so damaged.

 

[dru]

i feel I am being forced to take up another interest as I keep being dished up a rubbish product year on year with super rugby. I am pretty pissed off with how this product has been so damaged.

This I understand.

I now want to see oz sides destroyed by kiwi sides...

But I can't run with this bit.

 

[Up the Guts]

But clubs around the world are starting to implement foreign quotas. There won't be enough spots to cover the 30-40 players you'd want in these spots.

Last night wasn't a talent problem, the Reds blew the Hurricanes away in the first 25 minutes.

Take away Julian's "deliberate knock back" and Vest's stupid tackle attempt and the Reds should have gone into the half 14-17 points ahead. However two inexperienced players in the Reds made two poor decisions and the Hurricanes capitalised.

Add in poor handling and gifting the Hurricanes Territory as Jordie has a massive boot on him from penalty kicks and the Reds were their own worse enemy.

Surprised at all the noise about how unevenly matched the round was, seemed more even than it has been for a few years. Really should have been 2-2 but the Reds shit the bed (and really missed some key personnel).

 

[TSR]

I do completely get the dissatisfaction with the current set up.

What I don’t get is what the obvious better option is.

If we want the Aussie teams then fine, ditch two teams and only have 3 in Super rugby. We’ll be more competitive and have more money to retain key players, and at the same time we’ll pretty much guarantee we’ll kill any decent level of growth/development in a couple of key areas.

If we just want the Wallabies to be competitive now then fine, go open slather on OS players. Then enjoy the next 2-3 years. Even with an open slather policy I can’t see how we get above 2-3 in the World presently (being optimistic) and, IMO, it’ll pretty much guarantee we’ll be outside the top 5 and, almost certainly, the top 10, in the next 6-7 yrs. Serious pro rugby in Australia will wither and die. We’ll get a few players still come through - similiar to basketball & NFL, but we certainly won’t be better than we are now at a national level.

What we need is to give WA & Vic time to build their local pathways. The drain on our players isn’t going to reduce, so we need to widen the funnel. And WA & Vic have already made significant improvements - we should be aware of that. They have some way to go, but they are bringing local talent through. People might think this will take too long, but I reflect on the fact that 4 yrs go we struggled to fill three back row jerseys with test level players, and our choices at 1, 2, 4, 5, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14 & 15 all involved trade off decisions on players who couldn’t competently do all the key parts of their role description. Qld adopted a scorched Earth policy, NSW soon followed suite and both are in considerably better positions now then they were 3 yrs ago - even if they both have some way to go.

Personally I think the current set up is like Democracy. The worst possible system. Except all the others. It may well not survive, but I don’t see how that will be a positive.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

This I understand.



But I can't run with this bit.

Dru I can’t see this ending well so I am getting to the view better for accelerated decline then continual slow burn decline so we can end up with next stage of whatever comes after super rugby.

Watching super rugby year on year is like watching death by a 1000 paper cuts. And when you have more kiwi ex pats at games in Melbourne super rugby (ie only kiwi ex pats propping up the game) better to put us out of our misery.

Sorry Dru this competition has no future so better we kill our involvement then the slow painful death currently enduring year on year.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I do completely get the dissatisfaction with the current set up.

What I don’t get is what the obvious better option is.

If we want the Aussie teams then fine, ditch two teams and only have 3 in Super rugby. We’ll be more competitive and have more money to retain key players, and at the same time we’ll pretty much guarantee we’ll kill any decent level of growth/development in a couple of key areas.

If we just want the Wallabies to be competitive now then fine, go open slather on OS players. Then enjoy the next 2-3 years. Even with an open slather policy I can’t see how we get above 2-3 in the World presently (being optimistic) and, IMO, it’ll pretty much guarantee we’ll be outside the top 5 and, almost certainly, the top 10, in the next 6-7 yrs. Serious pro rugby in Australia will wither and die. We’ll get a few players still come through - similiar to basketball & NFL, but we certainly won’t be better than we are now at a national level.

What we need is to give WA & Vic time to build their local pathways. The drain on our players isn’t going to reduce, so we need to widen the funnel. And WA & Vic have already made significant improvements - we should be aware of that. They have some way to go, but they are bringing local talent through. People might think this will take too long, but I reflect on the fact that 4 yrs go we struggled to fill three back row jerseys with test level players, and our choices at 1, 2, 4, 5, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14 & 15 all involved trade off decisions on players who couldn’t competently do all the key parts of their role description. Qld adopted a scorched Earth policy, NSW soon followed suite and both are in considerably better positions now then they were 3 yrs ago - even if they both have some way to go.

Personally I think the current set up is like Democracy. The worst possible system. Except all the others. It may well not survive, but I don’t see how that will be a positive.

Yeh but working with nzru ain’t helping. I actually don’t know what the alternative is but I think increasingly we just can’t seem to get nzru and RA to work together to create a favourable competition fans want so we may at some stage be forced to do our own thing. Sadly when that happens that may be when rugby in Australia is even less relevant which hard to believe when already is today (as judged by national media coverage cf nrl and afl etc.