Reds 2014

[Scoey]

In reply to Athilnaur:


The delicious irony of this statement.

Almost worthy of Bruce Ross status but the evident self deprecation side steps, does a soaring swan dive redolent of a famous English winger, and crashes to earth, sans ball.

Nice. Very nice!

 

[fatprop]

Reds need to rework style to return to top of Australian rugby pile

• by: Jim Tucker
• From: The Courier-Mail
• July 23, 2013 12:00AM

Richard Graham will undertake a Reds review with Ewen McKenzie. Picture: Bradley Kanaris Source: Getty Images
FALLING from their top dog status as Australia's leading provincial side is the wake-up call that the Reds need a tweak of playing style to evolve in 2014.
Reaching the Super Rugby finals for a third straight year is a worthy achievement but the decay in results against other Australian sides this season tells a fuller story......

.....
The need to fast track some bigger backs for attacking options outside Will Genia and Quade Cooper is essential.
Powerful 105kg centre Samu Kerevi, 19, has been signed to the Reds' extended squad for 2014 for just that project. ....

http://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby-...alian-rugby-pile/story-fndpu22x-1226683366472

 

[Scoey]

I haven't heard of Kerevi but I have seen the previously mentioned Jonah Placid and he would be great to see in Red. I know we've been flogging this horse for a few pages now but signing big young 19yo backs into the EPS is great but it ain't going to help us in 2014 and possibly not even in 2015.

 

[fatprop]

I actually think the issue is more about the dynamism of the forwards than a need for bigger backs.

The forwards need to be more effective at getting over the gain line and manufacturing quick ball.

But they aren't on their own at working out how to do that more constantly

 

[Scoey]

I actually think the issue is more about the dynamism of the forwards than a need for bigger backs.

The forwards need to be more effective at getting over the gain line and manufacturing quick ball.

But they aren't on their own at working out how to do that more constantly

Absolutely. Over the last 3-4 years we've had good to great backs. Even in 2012 when we got hammered with injury, the backs were able to make breaks and score tries. Some of the combos weren't great but by and large they got the job done. We've never had a 'flashy'* back line but it worked. Basically, a lot of teams are wary of what they can do to you if you're not on your game.

Our pigs on the other hand..... Again they have been effective but you wouldn't really say that our forward pack is one that has had too many teams too concerned in recent years. Our scrum has been adequate, not often dominated but rarely dominates others. Our line out is good but not quite an attacking weapon. Our breakdown work has been the feature but too often, they get matched or beaten and then we have no fall back plan. And our ball runners? Horwill goes well, but suffers a bit from the Digby syndrome, as in, he is the main threat. Oppositions have the luxury of being able to focus extra defensive attention on him as they don't have to worry that much on anyone else damaging the line. Gill is developing his ball running well but we are still very limited here. Our young back row works hard on getting to the rucks but I'm not sure whether they were getting fatigued toward the end of the season or that oppositions were working out how to hold them up or slow them down but they seemed less effective as the season wore on. This is why DK looked so good coming off the bench in the last couple of games. He had the size and hardness that the three young 'uns lacked.

What does all this mean? Well to me it means that you will win enough games to get you to the playoffs but when it comes time to step it up a notch we've got nothing. Playoffs the last two years in a row off the back of some (at times) pretty lacklustre footy. Knocked out in the first round both times. Need to address this, grow, change and adapt.


* I should qualify what I mean by flashy. A lot of the guys we've used would probably not rate in most peoples Wallaby back lines, guys like Lance & Lucas. Also players that have struggled to crack their potential, guys like Ships, Moz, Taps etc.

 

[RedsHappy]

Fp, it's amusing that you post this media article by Jim Tucker with emblazoned highlights as though it's a revelation of startling new insight or discovery. The Media Says it So it Must be Right.

In fact, a number of us hard-core Reds fans have been saying exactly or essentially this (and more) for many months (even a year or more in some cases) now, in different forms and in many varied posts.

Jim Tucker's just catching up on time-delay: these problems within the Reds playing style and team capability have been evident since the latter stages of their 2012 campaign (once their awful injury problems that year could be less masking of more underlying, emerging problems with the Reds attack).

It's actually a very legitimate criticism of the Reds' coaching group that more was not done in late 2012 and through the 2013 pre-season to address the underlying Reds problems that probably reached their zenith last Saturday (but which ironically were also evident - to a lesser degree - vs the Sharks in the 2012 QF).

There are warning bells here wrt to Link's continuing focus and toughness to keep renovating and improving his teams after triumphs vs just refining and perhaps over-indulging or over-trusting the status quo he has built. It's though one title was enough for Link, and from 2012 sometime his deeper attention moved onto the possibilities of greater glories in some future, new role.

 

[fatprop]

It looks like a depth issue to me, the starting pack is solid enough without being spectacular, but the bench options just don't offer enough to consistently to threaten the starter's places or provide real game changing moments off the bench.

When the Reds won the comp they were able to cycle through Robinson, Gill, Samo & AWH et al and all provided spark every game. Now three of those don't anymore but were still in the reserves

 

[fatprop]

Fp, it's amusing that you post this media article by Jim Tucker with emblazoned highlights as though it's a revelation of startling new insight or discovery. The Media Says it So it Must be Right.

In fact, a number of us hard-core Reds fans have been saying exactly or essentially this (and more) for many months (even a year or more in some cases) now, in different forms and in many varied posts.

Jim Tucker's just catching up on time-delay: these problems within the Reds playing style and team capability have been evident since the latter stages of their 2012 campaign (once their awful injury problems that year could be less masking of more underlying, emerging problems with the Reds attack).

It's actually a very legitimate criticism of the Reds' coaching group that more was not done in late 2012 and through the 2013 pre-season to address the underlying Reds problems that probably reached their zenith last Saturday (but which ironically were also evident - to a lesser degree - vs the Sharks in the 2012 QF).

There are warning bells here wrt to Link's continuing focus and toughness to keep renovating and improving his teams after triumphs vs just refining and perhaps over-indulging or over-trusting the status quo he has built. It's though one title was enough for Link, and from 2012 sometime his deeper attention moved onto the possibilities of greater glories in some future, new role.

One of Link's key skills is papering over the cracks - he develops wonderful game plans to hide problems with his teams - but that has a shelf life like anything else.

Graham's key issue to me is making some really tough squad decisions and then recruitment.

 

[Gnostic]

I don't agree with the idea of big backs just for the sake of it. Look for talent IMO before size, if the two are in the same package so much the better.

The Reds backline this year lacked the work off the ball we saw in the previous years in attack. The game against the Crusaders was a good example of this. On too many occasions we saw Cooper get the ball with nobody to pass to or even support him if he made a run. He was left to try and make enough ground and delay long enough for the supporters to secure the ensuing ruck.

I would also say that the loss of A. Fainga'a has shown me what a lynch pin of the backline he is for the Reds. The defence without him was too often unorganised and swiss cheese like.

The 2014 Reds have some serious challenges to address with regard to the roster and I would suggest the following positions need urgent attention
1) 15 - with the loss of Lance and Morahan who us there to step in?
2) Wing - Shipperly and Davies will be starting but who is the reserve and depth in the squad.
3) Lock/6 - who is there backing up Simmons & Horwill. Is O'Donohue staying for 2014? If so the Reds still need back-up for 6/8

 

[Gnostic]

Fp, it's amusing that you post this media article by Jim Tucker with emblazoned highlights as though it's a revelation of startling new insight or discovery. The Media Says it So it Must be Right.

In fact, a number of us hard-core Reds fans have been saying exactly or essentially this (and more) for many months (even a year or more in some cases) now, in different forms and in many varied posts.

Jim Tucker's just catching up on time-delay: these problems within the Reds playing style and team capability have been evident since the latter stages of their 2012 campaign (once their awful injury problems that year could be less masking of more underlying, emerging problems with the Reds attack).

It's actually a very legitimate criticism of the Reds' coaching group that more was not done in late 2012 and through the 2013 pre-season to address the underlying Reds problems that probably reached their zenith last Saturday (but which ironically were also evident - to a lesser degree - vs the Sharks in the 2012 QF).

There are warning bells here wrt to Link's continuing focus and toughness to keep renovating and improving his teams after triumphs vs just refining and perhaps over-indulging or over-trusting the status quo he has built. It's though one title was enough for Link, and from 2012 sometime his deeper attention moved onto the possibilities of greater glories in some future, new role.

How much of a coach's ability to continuously improve a side is hampered by the contracting system? If a player is a star one year and is on a three year contract yet gets injured or just fails to perform for whatever reason how can the coach select a form player over them?

It seems more and more to me that we get immediate results from a fresh but long term results are more difficult. The Chiefs this year look a bit like the Reds of 2012, but with better depth to cover their injury issues than the Reds did. It will be interesting indeed to see if they continue to decline next year and also give a new perspective on the low risk ideology that the Tahs espoused for so long, which ensured they reach so many finals series.

I haven't changed my views on that but it is an different perspective on the problems.

 

[RedsHappy]

One of Link's key skills is papering over the cracks - he develops wonderful game plans to hide problems with his teams - but that has a shelf life like anything else.

Graham's key issue to me is making some really tough squad decisions and then recruitment.

100% mate. But the omens so far are unfortunately not encouraging. These issues were looming since end 2011, and too little was done in a planning sense to address them looking forward. Do you remember how limp was the Reds' attack - and general game style - in 2012's early season even before the shocking injuries of that year's RSA tour. That scratchy period started the 'so long as we grind out the wins, everything's OK' coach-speak. But the fact of the matter is that we only played two matches of all-team-firing attacking prowess in 2012: v the Chiefs and at home v Tahs.

Moving on, there have been no meaningful new external Reds recruits made this year, and no obvious attempt to introduce QLD-based new players that really shone and showed outstanding potential in crucial positions where replacements or upgrading was/is required (eg like Crawford and Skelton for the Tahs). Sadly, many new-ish Reds players (e.g. Shipps, Taps) have gone badly backwards for inexplicable reasons.

My fear in this context is that we have bought into the 'we've won an S15 title, we have this unique culture and systems-set so that we can prosper solely with a 'grow our own' development model to keep the team competitive. Promoting our academy players will suffice on a path to the next title'.

But it won't suffice IMO. In 2014, I'd predict at least the Tahs, Brumbies, Blues, Stormers, Sharks, Rebels, and Cheetahs will significantly improve their teams' performance level and consistency. The S15 caravan is moving on quite rapidly, skills are being enhanced, excessively monolithic playing styles and game plans are being better undermined, general defense is improving, and better plans are being devised to counter individual player strengths in key teams. And thank goodness for that, it makes the S15 the extraordinarily good competition that it is!. The challenge for all good coaching groups is to keep ahead, keep renovating at all junctures, make the hard calls even vis-a-vis old winners, shake the status quo up and go on to the higher planes of capability. Darwin's law of rugby.

 

[Brumby Runner]

lewisr


That is a big statement. I'm not sure what you mean by Quade Cooper mould but I highly doubt it is applicable to young Sam. Unless by that you were comparing him to schoolboy Quade in '05/06?
I don't know where that argument would go.


Fair point on the kicking though. Still think Greene is a year or two off being S15 level at either fly-half or fullback, can't help but think maybe the boot would get the yips during a full Suncorp Stadium with a game on the line.

I'd be looking at Jonah Placid or someone with a bit more size and less responsibility who can inject speed off the bench whilst being an important squad member. Greene has enormous potential and I have no doubt he will play for the Reds one day but maybe those light dark blue glasses are obscuring reality for now. EPS for sure.

Can't wait to see Placid get a go at S15 level. A serious talent.

 

[light]

Kerevi is a good signing, a year or too off super 15 though.

I hope RG is looking overseas at a marquee signing or we will begin 2014 on the back foot. IMO that squad won't make the finals and unless something miraculous happens with development players we will seriously struggle to threaten good defences.

Is UJ still in the books for next year?

 

[EatSleepDrinkRuck]

You know who I miss?

Ben Daley - In 2009 had him pegged as locking down the Wallabies front row spot...

 

[Braveheart81]

You know who I miss?

Ben Daley - In 2009 had him pegged as locking down the Wallabies front row spot.

Was that until he actually did play for the Wallabies?

 

[Bowside]

I'm very happy with Kerevi signing. He's been tearing it up in premier rugby.

Hopefully the reds are able to tie some other young blokes for the academy team next year like Gunn, Greene and Placid. I expect other U20's players like Parker, Paraka, Nguamo, Ready, Meehan and that flyhalf from sunnybank might stick around as well.

I think part of the reason the reds struggled this season is because they have lost a bit of depth since 2010 due to players like Kuridrani, Sitauti, Kingi, Prior, Higginbotham etc moving to other teams in search of game time. Nature of the beast really.

I would like to see the reds sign Caleb Timu. Played rugby at school, currently in the broncos fulltime squad at 19 and could be a devastating runner at 6 or 8.

 

[Bowside]

What the reds need more than anything is to develop a LH prop to replace Holmes, and a solid lock to come off the bench and maybe replace Simmons. That will go a long way towards improving our scrummaging and breakdown work I think.

 

[lewisr]

Whatever money is paid to Gilly is well deserved and necessary. At his age and with his talent level, the Reds have a real gem on their books. Whatever it takes to keep him in Red until he's in his 30's is money well spent in my opinion.

Absolutely 100% totally agree, but surely it all couldnt have gone to him? I was more pointing out how bullshit it was that the ARU didn't give one of the most promising players in Australia a top up.

 

[Braveheart81]

Absolutely 100% totally agree, but surely it all couldnt have gone to him? I was more pointing out how bullshit it was that the ARU didn't give one of the most promising players in Australia a top up.

How was it bullshit though? He was third in line in his position. If there are going to be roughly 30 contracts issued that makes it very difficult to give Gill one.

There is only a certain amount of money to give out.

This happened last year remember. If Pocock hadn't injured himself at the start of the season Gill might not have played a test in 2013.

It is a harsh reality of being in a position where we actually have some serious talent and depth.

A 20 year old (as he was last year) after playing a handful of tests off the bench is hardly in a position to expect a guaranteed Wallaby contract.

 

[EatSleepDrinkRuck]

Was that until he actually did play for the Wallabies?

Yep, pretty much.

I thought he was just getting started and could keep improving, little did I know he had peaked.