Reds 2016

[Scoey]

I don't need to point out the obvious difference between Genia/Cooper and Frisby/McIntyre do I?

Cooper could stand flatter against a rush defence because him and Genia had a fast flat wide pass. They could beat the defence standing flatter. The Tahs were giving up space out wide and the couple of times we were quick enough to get around them we made big metres. The drama is that Jake doesn't have that pass in him, hence standing way deeper to give more time to move the ball. We need to come up with other ways to counter the rush defence. As Ignoto suggested, guys like Nabuli running off Jake's inside shoulder, Hunt (12) drifting wide with Kerevi running an sweet line cutting back in and Goromaru chiming in where ever the opportunity looks best. CFS hanging wide and fuck even get Frisby looping around looking for a second touch? Jake would then have options everywhere and that's not including a deft chip over the top of the line to get them turning on their heels.

I'm a lock that played a bit of #8. I know exactly 2/15ths of sweet fuck all of what backs do and how they do it. I just made that all that up. Would what I suggested even work?

 

[USARugger]

Using 11/14 as inside runners, having some 12/13 switch moves, structuring 2nd touches for the playmakers, the fullback calling for adjustments to moves, and using the openside winger to pin opposition defenders near the touchline are all essential elements of any backs moves sheet..

The Reds have just somehow lost these slides when putting their own together.

I've played a good bit of 10 and the Reds' current structure looks like an absolute nightmare to be a first receiver in. Whoever it was that called it a "poisoned chalice" a few pages back was dead-on.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I'm going to make one more scrum comment..

If any team has a weaker scrum then the Tahs then it's gotta be the Force, they have had a few injuries to their props in pre-season, Reds will need to convert that to points this week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If under pressure the Force hopefully don't follow the NSW precedant and go uncontested.

Think there is a little more backbone over in the West.

 

[Scoey]

Using 11/14 as inside runners, having some 12/13 switch moves, structuring 2nd touches for the playmakers, the fullback calling for adjustments to moves, and using the openside winger to pin opposition defenders near the touchline are all essential elements of any backs moves sheet..

The Reds have just somehow lost these slides when putting their own together.

I've played a good bit of 10 and the Reds' current structure looks like an absolute nightmare to be a first receiver in. Whoever it was that called it a "poisoned chalice" a few pages back was dead-on.

Thanks USA Rugger.

Ok, so this may sound facetious but it's not intended to be.

If I can work that out, with seriously no knowledge of back play, why can't/won't the Reds coaching staff get something like that going? Can anyone see what they could possibly be trying to achieve?

 

[Scrubber2050]

Thanks USA Rugger.

Ok, so this may sound facetious but it's not intended to be.

If I can work that out, with seriously no knowledge of back play, why can't/won't the Reds coaching staff get something like that going? Can anyone see what they could possibly be trying to achieve?

Scoey - I'll try and help you out.

They are trying to score try's

 

[rugbywatch]

Is it just me who is astounded at the number of Ex Reds/Qld schoolboys/premier grade players who we've lost to other franchises:

Nigel Ah Wong
Albert Anae
Rory Arnold
Jarrad Butler
Blake Enever
Stephen Moore
David Pocock
Ruan Smith
Lausii Tauliali
Joe Tomane
Matt To'omua
Aidan Toua
Ita Vaea
Angus Cottrell
Heath Tessman
Richie Arnold
Ben Tapuai
Ian Prior
Jono Lance
Luke Morahan
Junior Rasolea
Harley Fox
James Hanson
Mike Harris
Sam Jeffries
Sean McMahon
Ben Meehan
Jonah Placid
Dom Shipperley
Laurie Weeks
Israel Folau
Bryce Hegarty
MatT Lucas
Brad Wilkin

Not to mention all those overseas too....

 

[USARugger]

Scoey - I'll try and help you out.

They are trying to score try's

If the try line was behind our gain line or beyond the touch line we may be top of the table in a few months!

 

[dru]

I don't need to point out the obvious difference between Genia/Cooper and Frisby/McIntyre do I?

Cooper could stand flatter against a rush defence because him and Genia had a fast flat wide pass. They could beat the defence standing flatter.

The other key difference is experience. Enough experience to interpret RGs instructions and pull together something that works. RG has exactly what he wanted - a halves pairing that do what he tells them, no more, no less.

Interesting Marto's cooment in 360 that a good thing for the Reds was loosing Genia and Quade who were ""uncoachable". Seems he is swallowing the RG party lines quite nicely.

I know an assistant coach cant implement something that the Head Coach doesnt want, but where is MOC in this? Where are the forward pods getting some go forward? And surely he can manage better than backlines running huge distance to simply not get back to where the gain line started.

 

[Scrubber2050]

The other key difference is experience. Enough experience to interpret RGs instructions and pull together something that works. RG has exactly what he wanted - a halves pairing that do what he tells them, no more, no less.

Interesting Marto's cooment in 360 that a good thing for the Reds was loosing Genia and Quade who were ""uncoachable". Seems he is swallowing the RG party lines quite nicely.

I know an assistant coach cant implement something that the Head Coach doesnt want, but where is MOC in this? Where are the forward pods getting some go forward? And surely he can manage better than backlines running huge distance to simply not get back to where the gain line started.

I think Marto's comments (for once) were spot on.

Add to that the performances of both blokes over the past few years - average at best.

The Reds will be MUCH better when Slipper and Gill return but that is still several games away.

I saw promise in the backs last week - certainly a work in progress but something more than I originally thought.

Hopefully a good win this week will instill some confidence moving forward.

 

[dru]

I think Marto's comments (for once) were spot on.

Add to that the performances of both blokes over the past few years - average at best.

The Reds will be MUCH better when Slipper and Gill return but that is still several games away.

I saw promise in the backs last week - certainly a work in progress but something more than I originally thought.

Hopefully a good win this week will instill some confidence moving forward.

I think your view on Will and Quade is harsh. Have a look at what a decent coach got out of them, then look at performance under RG (or Dingo for that matter). Also factor in time out with injury, or finding their way back to form.

I cant state authoritatively from a distance, but Grahame has given every appearance of intentionally removing experience in order to make his life easier. Its not an approach that Link or Cheika has taken. Check gave The Red halves every chance. Are you suggesting that Cheika considers them uncoachable? Ridiculous.

On our performance v Waratahs. I thought the promise was there too. Im reconsidering McIntyre in a more positive light. And with a (absolutely predictable) shift of Hunt to the centers, there may be room for decission making where it counts.

Equally obvious though, this promise is from a crazy low base and we are no closer to seeing any kind of understandable game plan.

 

[Ignoto]

I don't think "uncoachable" is the word Marto should have used, more "didn't want to play for Graham" is a better description.

Look what Link was able to do in '10/'11 and Cheika did in '15. The coaches had the respect of the players and once that's gone, there's very little that can be done to get a message across.

The players aren't idiots, they're well aware of Graham's track record (well lack thereof) and nothing about the guy as a coach makes you want to take onboard what he has to say.

 

[Scoey]

Under Link, it was consistently reported by various sources that Quade was instrumental in developing game strategies and tactics. Link was often quoted saying things that inferred that the way to coach these days is to get the buy-in of the players and work with them, using their strengths.

Quade isn't uncoachable because one particular coach couldn't coach him. That just makes that one coach a bit of a dud.

It seems like RG either has an extremely limited skill set as a coach or an extremely narrow view on how a team should be coached and play.

 

[dru]

It seems like RG either has an extremely limited skill set as a coach or an extremely narrow view on how a team should be coached and play.

Dingo had an extremely narrow view (which worked at the Crusaders).
RG, imo, is a dud with extremely limited skillset.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Is it just me who is astounded at the number of Ex Reds/Qld schoolboys/premier grade players who we've lost to other franchises:

Nigel Ah Wong
Albert Anae
Rory Arnold
Jarrad Butler
Blake Enever
Stephen Moore
David Pocock
Ruan Smith
Lausii Tauliali
Joe Tomane
Matt To'omua
Aidan Toua
Ita Vaea
Angus Cottrell
Heath Tessman
Richie Arnold
Ben Tapuai
Ian Prior
Jono Lance
Luke Morahan
Junior Rasolea
Harley Fox
James Hanson
Mike Harris
Sam Jeffries
Sean McMahon
Ben Meehan
Jonah Placid
Dom Shipperley
Laurie Weeks
Israel Folau
Bryce Hegarty
MatT Lucas
Brad Wilkin

Not to mention all those overseas too..

I've got to say that's not a particularly strong looking list. Only a couple of international standard players there.

With 5 teams and only 2 real genuine catchment areas it's pretty much to be expected isn't it?

For completeness, could you list the "foreigners" that have played for the reds over the same period?

 

[I like to watch]

Mike Harris?
With all respect to Mike,there are plenty of better performed players that grew up in that famous Qld nursery in North Harbour

 

[Scrubber2050]

I think your view on Will and Quade is harsh. Have a look at what a decent coach got out of them, then look at performance under RG (or Dingo for that matter). Also factor in time out with injury, or finding their way back to form.

I cant state authoritatively from a distance, but Grahame has given every appearance of intentionally removing experience in order to make his life easier. Its not an approach that Link or Cheika has taken. Check gave The Red halves every chance. Are you suggesting that Cheika considers them uncoachable? Ridiculous.

On our performance v Waratahs. I thought the promise was there too. Im reconsidering McIntyre in a more positive light. And with a (absolutely predictable) shift of Hunt to the centers, there may be room for decission making where it counts.

Equally obvious though, this promise is from a crazy low base and we are no closer to seeing any kind of understandable game plan.

Chek gave both Will and Quade a chance - one took it and the other continued with his average form Correct ?????

Agree re Hunt - best game he has played since joining the Reds

I do think that RG's job was made harder because of Horwill Genia and Cooper. He was relatively inexperienced and they were the big dogs.
PLEASE don't take my comment as support for RG in ANY way.

 

[Scoey]

I do think that RG's job was made harder because of Horwill Genia and Cooper. He was relatively inexperienced and they were the big dogs.

Doesn't say much of a coach if having players like those three make their job harder.

Even if that were true, which I'm not on board with, then that says more about the coaches ability than the coach-ability of the aforementioned players.

We can skin this cat whichever way you want, but it still comes back to RG not being up to the job required of him.

 

[dru]

I've got to say that's not a particularly strong looking list. Only a couple of international standard players there.

With 5 teams and only 2 real genuine catchment areas it's pretty much to be expected isn't it?

For completeness, could you list the "foreigners" that have played for the reds over the same period?

Jeez. The following all have Wallaby caps:
Moore
Pocock
To'omua
Tapuai
Morahan
Hanson
Harris
McMahon
Shipperley
Weeks
Folau

But its not the point. And yes its good that opportunity has opened elsewhere for the lads. It's about talent identification and retention. Add the above names to the current squad, then reselect the top 35, to fit the salary restrictions, including ARU top up assistant as it is right now.

That squad would look very different to the squad we have now.

 

[I like to watch]

I do think that RG's job was made harder because of Horwill Genia and Cooper. He was relatively inexperienced and they were the big dogs.
PLEASE don't take my comment as support for RG in ANY way.

Those 3 were arguably the most important players in his squad,both in terms of performance and leadership.
I don't recall any other coaches having anything but praise for the 3 of them.
So if there was a problem,it points to one individual doesn't it?

 

[Scoey]

Jeez. The following all have Wallaby caps:

Dru I think he meant the QLD developed players that we have lost to overseas clubs.

The few that spring to mind are the obvious ones:

James Horwill
Will Genia
Quade Cooper
Drew Mitchell
James O'Connor
Ben Mowen
Rod Davies
Scott Higginbotham
Eddie Quirk
Jesse Mogg? (Born in QLD, no idea where he grew up/played Rugby, possibly ACT)
Berrick Barnes (???)
Digby Ioane (? No idea how much Rugby he played in QLD)