Reds 2019

[RedsHappy]

Reds have hired a 'sports profiler' to assist Thorn. Miller acknowledging Thorns many gaps in coaching skill but happy to re-sign him.

i give up..

The Wayne Smith piece in today's The Australian is quite extraordinary in many ways, just a few highlighted examples:

“They’ve all been of the same system, they all work well with their academies and their clubs and all of that. Now, we do a lot of that. If you have a look at the results of our pathways programs, they are all very strong but we seem to then fall over — and have done so for a while — at the professional level.​

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“So for us, Brad was appointed for a reason and that was to execute on cultural change. We understand he is an inexperienced coach and Brad would admit that himself. He’s learning all the time.​

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“I know that we will be under pressure if we lose more games this year, we’ll be under pressure to say that Brad is not the man. He has some weaknesses that have been identified and he is as keen as we are to develop as a head coach and he’s taking on board a lot of that mentoring to help him develop.”​

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Hanson, a four-time Olympian, was brought on this season to work with Thorn, his assistants Jim McKay and Peter Ryan and other key officials.​

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“Bo is doing a really good job working with him and the coaching unit, just in terms of getting some coach development happening, getting cohesion, getting communication right,” said Miller."​

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This is as close as the QRU* ever gets to admitting the truth which has been evident to many of us since 2012:

- as above: 'failing at the professional level'.......we all know that is code for the horrendous bungling re HC choices since the day that R Graham was appointed in April 2012 and then protected and ridiculously indulged for an unforgivable number of failing years by the then QRU Chair and board, plus then the failed Stiles, McGahan, O'Connor experiments that were all QRU-driven and that left the Reds no better off, probably in this deathly continuity, worse off

- 'execute on cultural change'.........the amazing admission, implicit in the statements above, is that a rookie HC brought in to allegedly effect - as the key requirement - 'cultural change' in turn needs a soft skills culture-oriented adviser like Hanson on 'cohesion, communication, coach development'. I mean, come on, 'do we see what they did there'.

- the admission re the complete pro level HC inexperience of Thorn - and the super-high-risk strategy to appoint him to revive a long-failing Reds team and calamitously low home crowd levels - that in Thorn's Year 2 he needs 'mentoring' and 'dealing with some identified weaknesses' so consultants are being retained to deal with this challenge

What the above aggregates to is a kind of complete confession that the QRU (a) bungled its pro level coaching program disastrously for a scary number of years and (b) in remediation of this self-inflicted trauma it's opted for a new HC 'personal growth program' that is intrinsically fragile and dangerously uncertain in both its current and strategic nature.

Let's hope the QRU's risk calculus is a worthy one. The QRU commercially and financially is one minute to midnight as to viability, and I think it knows it.

(* The QRU is distinguished as an organisation in never, ever admitting mistakes of any kind.)

 

[gel]

^^^^its just easier if you say the "qru are just fucked"

Coz they are.

And it's an accurate assessment.

 

[liquor box]

I think a successful business, or rugby club for that matter should always look to improve.

No matter how good Thorn is, the question should always be "is he the best available?"

Who is going to be available in the next couple of years? Chieka will probably leave after the World Cup....Is he a better coach? The Sunwolves are getting kicked out...is there coach better?

I dont like Thorn, but if he is the best we can get then I support him

 

[Quick Hands]

The Wayne Smith piece in today's The Australian is quite extraordinary in many ways, just a few highlighted examples:

“They’ve all been of the same system, they all work well with their academies and their clubs and all of that. Now, we do a lot of that. If you have a look at the results of our pathways programs, they are all very strong but we seem to then fall over — and have done so for a while — at the professional level.​

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Agree with everything you have said RH. Note that much of it could also be applied to the NSWRU and other state RUs.

Re the part of your post that I have copied here. This is a damning indictment and says very conscisely what is going wrong with the game in Australia. We have all these talented kids in these academies, but what is going on in these academies isn't developing the core skills and game awareness consciousness needed to suceed at the professional level. The vast majority of these kids are talented athletes, and virtually all the players involved in Australian Super Rugby teams have been through these self-same academies and related development programmes - and look at how our super teams have performed in recent years.

Closely related to this is the coaches aren't being developed either. Again, we need to look at the coaches involved in Australian super rugby - Waratahs; Daryl Gibson, a kiwi who if he was any good would surely have been chased and secured by an NZ super team, Reds; Brad Thorn, another kiwi, who as the QRU admit is a highly inexperienced coach, Rebels; Dave Wessels, a South African who is clearly the best coach of the three, Brumbies; Dan McKellar; an Aussie who has at least coached at club level not just parachuted into a professional team like many other failed Aussie coaches. (S.Larkham comes to mind) He has promise and I hope he develops as a coach.

So, as a Tier 1 rugby nation we can barely produce one professional rugby coach.

Is it any wonder our players aren't developing.

Take my word for it, all of the issues currently besetting Qld rugby are to varying degrees applicable to all states.

 

[Beer Baron]

I think a successful business, or rugby club for that matter should always look to improve.

No matter how good Thorn is, the question should always be "is he the best available?"

Who is going to be available in the next couple of years? Chieka will probably leave after the World Cup..Is he a better coach? The Sunwolves are getting kicked out.is there coach better?

I dont like Thorn, but if he is the best we can get then I support him

Best we can afford may be apt. That is probably a driver behind Support for Thorn's youth policy - its cheap.

 

[Ignoto]

- 'execute on cultural change'...the amazing admission, implicit in the statements above, is that a rookie HC brought in to allegedly effect - as the key requirement - 'cultural change' in turn needs a soft skills culture-oriented adviser like Hanson on 'cohesion, communication, coach development'. I mean, come on, 'do we see what they did there'.

I honestly see the appointment of Bo as a positive sign that both management and the coaching team have identified and acted on a short coming proactively. To me, it shows they're at least constantly re-assessing themselves and the organisation and where appropriate acting to change something.

I also don't see Bo bringing brought into advise as an issue either. If you were to pop into the 'exclusive' chairmans lounge and ask them if they have or had an external consultant brought in to do the same thing, I guarantee most-to-all would say yes.

They can't change the appointment of Brad, but they can at least demonstrate to the Rugby public they're all in this mess together and a change of coach won't necessarily change anything.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Best we can afford may be apt. That is probably a driver behind Support for Thorn's youth policy - its cheap.

See also what the new CEO, with no experience is probably getting paid, and probably Thorn himself

 

[Silverado]

See also what the new CEO, with no experience is probably getting paid, and probably Thorn himself

You get what you pay for

 

[bloodred]

The Reds are performing at their level through their choice. We continue to chase away good players and throw in young guys who aren't ready. They then move on and play well for other teams.

Jets, I think there are lot of forces in action here. Your view is probably true but a little simplistic. What I heard last Saturday at the game was that Thor has been offered huge French dollars and Kerevi huge Japanese dollars. Both these players are crowd magnets and obviously can command that money. Reds and Australian dollars can't compete, especially when you are behind the 8 ball. Yes some players have moved on, perhaps it is the choice of who to keep that is wrong

 

[Finsbury Girl]

I think we're being a bit harsh. What the QRU are doing is investing.

Investing in people, investing in culture, investing in infrastructure to create the best environment to enable performance.

I'd rather have a coach who strives to learn more, to get better, who can acknowledge that they can do better.

It sounds to me as if the QRU are now building the platform, it takes time. I'm willing to wait a season or so. I hope Thorn can stick around for a long time. He has a real passion for QLD and QLD rugby. That's not something you can get from any old mercenary. You all may not value that, I most certainly do.

We were extremely lucky to have had long standing talent in and around Qld rugby, such as Bob Templeton, John Connelly and Alec Evans. It would be good to be able to replicate this in some way though I do understand we are now in a more professional era.

 

[dru]

I think we're being a bit harsh. What the QRU are doing is investing.

Investing in people, investing in culture, investing in infrastructure to create the best environment to enable performance.

I'd rather have a coach who strives to learn more, to get better, who can acknowledge that they can do better.

It sounds to me as if the QRU are now building the platform, it takes time. I'm willing to wait a season or so. I hope Thorn can stick around for a long time. He has a real passion for QLD and QLD rugby. That's not something you can get from any old mercenary. You all may not value that, I most certainly do.

We were extremely lucky to have had long standing talent in and around Qld rugby, such as Bob Templeton, John Connelly and Alec Evans. It would be good to be able to replicate this in some way though I do understand we are now in a more professional era.

Did you just put Alex Evans and Brad Thorn in the same context?

 

[Finsbury Girl]

No. I am saying that the organisation needs to have people who have experience and longevity in and around it.

Having said that who is to say that Thorn cannot kick on and have a career like Tempo or Knuckles? He has had some small success with QLD Country. He's only been around the top tier for a season and a bit so no-one can judge really either way.

If we keep getting flogged then I'll change my opinion on him as Qld coach but my point still stands we cannot chop and change willy nilly.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Did you just put Alex Evans and Brad Thorn in the same context?

Alex is in a different league of swearing/no-nonsense. Have been coached by him, and he suffers no fools. I think he would probably be quite supportive of the Thorn regime tbh.

 

[dru]

Alex is in a different league of swearing/no-nonsense. Have been coached by him, and he suffers no fools. I think he would probably be quite supportive of the Thorn regime tbh.

Fair enough (let’s other thoughts rest)

BTW @FG I entirely agree that Brad may be capable of becoming something great - time will tell. Also agree with (I think it was Sully) on the front page comments. Time for revolving doors on the Red HC to end. Brad should be giving another 3 after this season.

(And no, before the anti-Thorn brigade jump in, it doesn’t mean I appreciate how we got here.)

 

[Rugbynutter39]

No. I am saying that the organisation needs to have people who have experience and longevity in and around it.



Having said that who is to say that Thorn cannot kick on and have a career like Tempo or Knuckles? He has had some small success with QLD Country. He's only been around the top tier for a season and a bit so no-one can judge really either way.



If we keep getting flogged then I'll change my opinion on him as Qld coach but my point still stands we cannot chop and change willy nilly.

Some rational thinking that I suspect QRU employing - which is yes to get the great all star coach sounds great - but they are in short supply with other opportunities these fellows have in what they can earn elsewhere, read: Europe. So investing in an upcoming coach with potential who has some affiliation (as Thorn does with QLD) probably not the worst idea in the world. QLD rugby suffered from too much instability coaching wise so as long as Thorn keeps improving probably worth investing in unless that magic better option arises but lest not die waiting for this magical latter moment!

But that said I am not saying Thorn is continuing to improve at this stage at rate required as probably too early to be shouting that from the rooftops and calling that out but got good coaching set up around him so yes with this will only so much buy him more time. But equally chopping and changing too early at this point when rebuilding probably not the best idea either.....need to give it time many would say but that would be ignorant of fact many Reds fans been waiting long time for the right change and turnaround, which is something many understand.

So reds unlikely to make the finals this year it seems but if can finish couple of places higher than last season one might see this as progress perhaps or perhaps not lol....

 

[Strewthcobber]

How many coaches have been at a team medium/long term and had dramatic success or improvement over that term?

My impressions is that's not how it works. Coaches tend to have success quickly - in which case if they aren'tworking, it makes sense to try someone new

Edit:- To answer my own question. If you aint done it by year 2..........

2009 - Ludke Year 2
2010 - Ludke Year 3
2011 - McKenzie Year 2
2012 - Rennie Year 1
2013 - Rennie Year 2
2014 - Cheika Year 2
2015 - Joseph Year 5 (the exception?)
2016 - Boyd Year 2
2017 - Robertson Year 1
2018 - Robertson Year 2

 

[LearningCurve]

What was the coaching experience like as well before these coaches were appointed to Super Rugby HC roles?
Scott Robertson - assistant coach of Canterbury ITM Cup side for five years then appointed Canterbury's head coach in 2013,
2014 - 2016, head coach of the New Zealand Under-20 Rugby team,
2016 appointed head coach for the Crusaders for the 2017-2019 Super Rugby seasons.



Dave Rennie - coached Upper Hutt club side. 1999 - became assistant coach of Wellington ITM side, 2000 head coach Wellington ITM cup side. Then U23 Hurricanes coach and assistant coach Hurricanes. 20005 -2011 Manawatu ITM Cup coach. At same time NZ U20 coach. 2012-2016 - Chiefs coach in Super Rugby.


Chris Boyd - Tawa rugby club - 9 years. Then Wellington 2nd XV coach for 4 years, then Wellington ITM assistant, Sharks (SA) assistant 3 years, Wellington HC, then Hurricanes coach.


Frans Ludeke (Bulls) has over 30 years of experience in coaching, having started in 1987.


Strong background in developing coaching experience there with all of those. None appear to have been appointed to top jobs based on their playing abilities and have done the hard yards in learning their trade. I think we know Link's experience and Cheika's.


Coaching is something that has to be learnt over time. Great players don't always make good coaches at top level as often their skill level as a player is something that other players can't match and they can't understand why not.. Can they learn how to be good.coaches 'on the job' with 'the right support'? Possibly, but most likely they should be learning their trade at a lower level.

 

[USARugger]

Anyone ok with a Super Rugby coach learning how to do the gig while on the job really needs to lay off the Kool-Aid.

The idea that the Reds are "investing" (as a professional franchise) by stringing together 5+ (I've lost count) losing seasons and trying to lock in a further three is just laughable. That's not how any of this works.

The QRU aren't "planning" for the future or making shrewd investments here. They're pinching pennies because that's all they have left after how badly they've fucked up over the last 8 years in a sport that was already heavily marginalized in the broader Australian sporting landscape. I believe this is the middle of what you call a "death spiral".

 

[Bobby Sands]

Anyone ok with a Super Rugby coach learning how to do the gig while on the job really needs to lay off the Kool-Aid.

The idea that the Reds are "investing" (as a professional franchise) by stringing together 5+ (I've lost count) losing seasons and trying to lock in a further three is just laughable. That's not how any of this works.

The QRU aren't "planning" for the future or making shrewd investments here. They're pinching pennies because that's all they have left after how badly they've fucked up over the last 8 years in a sport that was already heavily marginalized in the broader Australian sporting landscape. I believe this is the middle of what you call a "death spiral".

Really?

 

[Crashy]

Was sad to see not a lot of sponsors on their jersey tonight