Reds 2021

[Ignoto]

I dunno, I think the disorganisatiom point is fair. But there's a reason why JOC (James O'Connor) drops back in defence and that's because he and Jock are the only two who can kick when the Fijian wingers are both starting. With 50-22 being in place it's critical to have two kickers at the back.

 

[Jets]

No point having someone who can kick there if they can't catch, I know JOC (James O'Connor) is normally quite reliable. I'd prefer to keep the wingers on the wing and then Jock can be inside for a kick option or they could run the ball back. Most of these kicks aren't contestable so they have time to look at their options.

 

[Zero_Cool]

Honestly, it looks pretty standard pendulum defense with dual fullbacks. Especially given the 50-22/22-50 the FB and FH both drop back to cover the sidelines. The winger closest to the FH / furthest from the FB covers the 10 channel. The Reds had a similar scheme with Quade. Cheika on the other hand had players all over the place.

Daugunu is a genuine kicking option, I don't think Vuni has a kicking game (but I'm open to being corrected), and no idea about Droasese. In the 'ideal' backline Dagununu would probably drop back and allow O'Connor to stay in the line.

 

[dru]

Honestly, it looks pretty standard pendulum defense with dual fullbacks. Especially given the 50-22/22-50 the FB and FH both drop back to cover the sidelines. The winger closest to the FH / furthest from the FB covers the 10 channel. The Reds had a similar scheme with Quade. Cheika on the other hand had players all over the place.

Daugunu is a genuine kicking option, I don't think Vuni has a kicking game (but I'm open to being corrected), and no idea about Droasese. In the 'ideal' backline Dagununu would probably drop back and allow O'Connor to stay in the line.

Yes I had no issue with the Quade scenario, though plenty did. In this case though we have Jock defending the 10 slot, which does not seem a strength al'a Fainga. And JOC (James O'Connor) can defend the 10 slot. Seems odd to me.

I'm happy to concede that I'm hardly justified having an opinion let alone any sort of expert. But it does seem unnecessary. Retrograde even.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Nick Bishop's latest article is concerning. I suspect some stuff is overblown but it does lay out a concerning analysis of the Reds.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/03/24/why-the-queensland-reds-are-skating-on-thin-ice/

What do the fans here think?

Precisely how I saw the Reds scrum performing as well. The following is Post No 251 on the game thread - my comment in bold.

PhilClinton said: ↑
Scrum dominance clear for the Reds, nearly had a tight head earlier as well.


Just my take on it, but the Reds scrum in the lead up to Tate's try had stepped to the left before pushing round. The Force scrum actually held its form except for the LHP who had no-one to bind onto after Tupou went left wards. Should have been a Force penalty imo, but Tate deserved his try on the back of abysmal defence by McIntyre.

Hopefully, this illegal action is penalised out of the Reds' game before too long.

I reckon that Paisami has really developed enough to hold the Wallaby No 12 spot. He will only improve with more game time.

 

[Dan54]

Precisely how I saw the Reds scrum performing as well. The following is Post No 251 on the game thread - my comment in bold.

PhilClinton said: ↑
Scrum dominance clear for the Reds, nearly had a tight head earlier as well.


Just my take on it, but the Reds scrum in the lead up to Tate's try had stepped to the left before pushing round. The Force scrum actually held its form except for the LHP who had no-one to bind onto after Tupou went left wards. Should have been a Force penalty imo, but Tate deserved his try on the back of abysmal defence by McIntyre.

Hopefully, this illegal action is penalised out of the Reds' game before too long.

I reckon that Paisami has really developed enough to hold the Wallaby No 12 spot. He will only improve with more game time.

That's funny, because I thought most of the game Tupou was turning in and pushing to left. Watch him in most games and very seldom does he actually push straight until he gets subs against him usually.

 

[TSR]

Hang on a sec - it’s all well and good for us as a community to mount a concerted campaign to stamp out the blatant cheating that those rotten poms were using to achieve some sort of shallow, morally corrupt victory at test level, but this is an outrage!!!! Clearly Zander is just trying to move the scrum slightly to a position where there is better, more stable turf for the safety of all concerned. He should be applauded. Poor form NB.

 

[Adam84]

All props scrummage illegal to some degree, some just do better at making the illegal look legal

 

[Brumby Runner]

Adam, if it looked illegal to me it must have been bloody obvious to most rugby followers. Ex-Reds personnel excepted of course.

 

[Adam84]

I doubt most rugby fans don’t even know what they’re looking at in the scrum, ive scrummed against front rows who have collapsed intentionally to milk penalties, and who have pulled back on the engage to convince the ref think we were pushing early.

Best front rows do a bit of everything, legal and illegal to upset the opposition front row and convince the ref

 

[Brumby Runner]

Just trying to muddy the waters there Adam. Nobody is talking about either side collapsing or pulling back to milk a penalty. The issue is simply the Reds scrum as a unit takes a couple of steps to the left and then pushes straight. It is disingenuous of some to suggest the Force LHP is strong enough to push Tupou and the rest of the Reds front row off their line.

 

[Adam84]

Just trying to muddy the waters there Adam. Nobody is talking about either side collapsing or pulling back to milk a penalty. The issue is simply the Reds scrum as a unit takes a couple of steps to the left and then pushes straight. It is disingenuous of some to suggest the Force LHP is strong enough to push Tupou and the rest of the Reds front row off their line.

i can tell you right now 'couple of steps to the left and then pushes straight' is not a front row tactic, it is not possible or practical for a LHP to try and step around a THP disengage and then drive straight into thin air, that would be counterproductive.

What you are seeing in those videos, and i said it during the Force game is Tupou turning in to drive a wedge between the LHP and Hooker, and Robertson driving in on Tupous side. The other side of the scrum is been pushed to the left, they aren't stepping to the left as a tactic, you can see this because their feet chase the angle of their shoulders. All the pressure is coming from the other side.

And to address your comments about Tate's try, the advantage was rightly awarded to the Reds because Robertson went to his knee soon after the engagement, before the scrum even started twisting.

 

[Ignoto]

Precisely how I saw the Reds scrum performing as well. The following is Post No 251 on the game thread - my comment in bold.

PhilClinton said: ↑
Scrum dominance clear for the Reds, nearly had a tight head earlier as well.


Just my take on it, but the Reds scrum in the lead up to Tate's try had stepped to the left before pushing round. The Force scrum actually held its form except for the LHP who had no-one to bind onto after Tupou went left wards. Should have been a Force penalty imo, but Tate deserved his try on the back of abysmal defence by McIntyre.

Hopefully, this illegal action is penalised out of the Reds' game before too long.

I reckon that Paisami has really developed enough to hold the Wallaby No 12 spot. He will only improve with more game time.

Ah yes. Somehow all 8 blokes were able to take a step to their left even with a few tons of force being applied.

Robertson was boring so far there was daylight between him and his hooker.

 

[Sully]

The thought of a loosehead taking a step to the left as a tactic is pretty ridiculous. Tightheads spend their scrum time trying to drive a wedge between the loosehead and the hooker. Zanders tactic is to give the force the wedge it needs to tear apart the Reds scrum. A much more likely explanation is the pressure to move left is coming from the Reds tighthead trying to do the same thing on the other side and driving across the scrum.

 

[TSR]

Yeah - but to be fair if someone posted a analysis accusing the Brumbies scrum of doing it, I’d be personally email it to Nic Berry & Damon Murphy and demanding they take action against the cheating b@@tards. I can’t begrudge other teams supporters making lots of noise when it happens to be the Reds in the firing line. I can only imagine the comments on the Roar where there happens to be a couple of absolute Thor haters.

The naive thing is assuming your own team’s scrum is completely legit.

 

[Adam84]

I watched the Gifs again, and I think what Nick Bishop misses in many of these cases is the initial infringement;

Tate’s try, why advantage was awarded to Reds

Another penalty awarded to Reds, hand on ground right in front of AR

 

[James GC]

Do you mean Robertson a capped Wallaby who had Tupou in his pocket, legally or otherwise?

Hes not a spud.

Here we see the first potatoes being planted for the season, Robertson really has TT in his pocket there pretty handy having pockets in the back of your jersey.

 

[Derpus]

What you are seeing in those videos, and i said it during the Force game is Tupou turning in to drive a wedge between the LHP and Hooker, and Robertson driving in on Tupous side. The other side of the scrum is been pushed to the left, they aren't stepping to the left as a tactic, you can see this because their feet chase the angle of their shoulders. All the pressure is coming from the other side.

If Tupou is turning in, is he infringing?

As far as my outside back eyes can discern scrums are nonsense random penalty generators.

 

[TSR]

Enormous fun to be in the middle of though

 

[The Nomad]

If Tupou is turning in, is he infringing?

As far as my outside back eyes can discern scrums are nonsense random penalty generators.

That’s the space he is aiming for , between LHP and 2 and got the desired result with the LHP folding.

The angle in that screenshot is fine.