State of the Union (origin) discussion

[Braveheart81]

What I would love is, if we can bring overseas players back for the series.

Extremely unlikely as it would neither be a test match nor within the international windows.

 

[Bobby Sands]

^ Agreed, it doesn't add up.

We might be stuck with Origin now at least during COVID ....

But:

• An origin series will eventually: (a) devalue the Super competition with player stand downs or reduced fixtures: and/or (b) subtract Tests from the Wallabies reciprocal schedule.

• There is a cap on games per player per season. Spend them on origins and there are fewer available elsewhere.. Pro teams, who pay these origin players their annual salary, still need a viable quota of matchdays to survive.

• Union, unlike league, doesn't have to compensate for not having an international game worthy of the name.

• i.e. A big part of SOO success was being a higher standard than tests. --- But RA can play actual competitive tests.

• Origin intermittently shuffles one state's squad of players in with another. Do these disruptions build playing cohesion or set it back? Does now having 5+ Qld-NSW games per season flog a dead horse?

Meh.

I truly believe this is because you are from WA, as mean or capricious as that sounds.

I don't think anyone from QLD or NSW can't see how this will have value.

Looking after the heartland is important, and something we have gotten too far away from imo.

Also SOO is the most watched sporting event in Australia every year, the number 1, the big kahuna.

It makes so much money, that this year when they were worried about the NRL they were still planning for SOO at the end of the year.

http://www.footyindustry.com/?p=4668

I am not sure if you know how media space is bought, but it's the metric of "eyeballs" to justify spend. The advertising spots around SOO would be the most expensive tv spots of the year based purely on eyeballs which the NRL would obviously also get a cut from as it is their product.

This is the real stuff, and I am very glad Hamish McLennan has got his big boy pants on to realise that.

 

[Bobby Sands]

And there is the biggest problem with SOO being just QLD and NSW. Exclude a bunch of players to make it proper origin and also alienated a bunch of the rugby public. OR make it a frankenmess of team wearing a QLD and NSW jersey. If that is the case let's just call the teams that not alienate people

So what's the alternative, is it what we are doing now? Pretend that QLD and NSW haven't been playing each other for over 100 years to not make people sad who are just setting up club comps?

We need to celebrate the tradition of the game, not erase it.

 

[dru]

I don't think it can simply be a SOO, but perhaps SOU is an indicator of some key differences.

Firstly whether intended or not, it will double as a WB trial. Players from all franchises simply must be available for one or the other SOU team.

For me, I would look to Rennie's coaching team - perhaps the forwards coach takes one team and the backs coach the other.

I would go further actually, and with the NZ desire to see our talent concentrated into two teams, put these two teams forward for Super 8. Once past the SOU, Super 8 can see both teams coached together with Rennie as a broader WB training squad.

It would provide an opportunity for public enthusiasm (hopefully) for a FTA SOU match to be carried forward into the Super 8 and then to the internationals.

I suppose that this would likely be predicated on a Super Au rather than TT. Which I dont at all mind, but we do need to see which way NZR moves with the proposals in front of them.

 

[Braveheart81]

State of the Union harks back to what the annual clashes were known as prior to Super Rugby. There's plenty of history there.

The biggest challenge will be the timing. It needs to include our best players but the schedule is generally totally packed already.

 

[Bobby Sands]

I would way rather an Allies side (WA, SA, VIC, TAS, ACT), than have WA rugby gods playing for QLD or NSW under the auspices of "we need to fit them in."

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

Any thoughts of back to club day? Make all available (no injured) Wallabies play for their club teams for one week.

 

[kiap]

I truly believe this is because you are from WA, as mean or capricious as that sounds

I am a Queenslander.

One who, despite playing only rugby union, originally watched more RL than rugby because that was the main game (and at one time, the only TV game). What RL once had, though, is gone. It's a shell of what it was - no time for it any more.

Where do you reckon people from WA are from? Much of the count generally, and in a rugby way specifically, are not born in WA. Particularly the last 20-25 years, they are exiled UK, ZA, NZ, Qld-NSW-Vic etc as well as native born, building on what was before.

 

[Bobby Sands]

I am a Queenslander.

One who, despite playing only rugby union, originally watched more RL than rugby because that was the main game (and at one time, the only TV game). What RL once had, though, is gone. It's a shell of what it was - no time for it any more.

Where do you reckon people from WA are from? Much of the count generally, and in a rugby way specifically, are not born in WA. Particularly the last 20-25 years, they are exiled UK, ZA, NZ, Qld-NSW-Vic etc as well as native born, building on what was before.

Ok great.

So with with that sound understanding of the concept, you think QLD and NSW teams should have WA players in them?

Explain that to me if you could.

How would it even work? Are you not just describing Super Rugby?

 

[dru]

Ok great.

So with with that sound understanding of the concept, you think QLD and NSW teams should have WA players in them?

Explain that to me if you could.

How would it even work? Are you not just describing Super Rugby?

If the answer is no, then the SOU needs to feature something other than NSW and Qld.

BTW I speak as someone born in WA, parents returning shortly after to Brisbane and have always considered myself a Qld-er. Like you too Bobby, I support the Reds above and beyond the Wallabies.

 

[Braveheart81]

The fact that Dane Haylett-Petty and a handful of other top 46 players can't effectively be shoe-horned into one of the sides isn't close to a reason to can the idea.

Those players could either be dealt with by a draft system or probably better yet, get them to nominate so that it is a permanent allocation.

I agree that it would be very likely be a quasi Wallaby trial because that would be the likely timing on the calendar so it is important that we can include all our best players.

 

[Bobby Sands]

If the answer is no, then the SOU needs to feature something other than NSW and Qld.

BTW I speak as someone born in WA, parents returning shortly after to Brisbane and have always considered myself a Qld-er. Like you too Bobby, I support the Reds above and beyond the Wallabies.

I think WA needs a team, either their own or an allegiance.

But the whole purpose of SOU would be defeated if we started recruiting people to QLD or NSW.

What happens if a superstar comes from SA? This will happen soon enough, where does he go?

 

[Bobby Sands]

The fact that Dane Haylett-Petty and a handful of other top 46 players can't effectively be shoe-horned into one of the sides isn't close to a reason to can the idea.

Those players could either be dealt with by a draft system or probably better yet, get them to nominate so that it is a permanent allocation.

I agree that it would be very likely be a quasi Wallaby trial because that would be the likely timing on the calendar so it is important that we can include all our best players.

I would go as far as to say that this fixture would immediately make the Wallabies better.

 

[kiap]

So with with that sound understanding of the concept, you think QLD and NSW teams should have WA players in them?

I put it to you, how clear is this origin "concept"?

• Make it too flexible and you lose the essence of the thing. Even in a sport as shameless as rugby league it became a tricked-up farce.

• On the other hand, make it too real and test players start missing out.

RA are packaging up extra content widgets to sell, I get that. Slap on the word "origin" to the old 1882 intercolonial match and behold the rivers of gold, amirite?

It won't get anywhere near what RL does because SOO is their peak with few other options. The maroon-blue SOO concept ain't that in rugby union, a worldwide game with better options.

One match, like the old North-South game the Kiwis are desparately trying to revive in the wake of the plague (and indeed the original "origin" itself), might work. Outside these Covid times, though, a 3-game annual series will cannibalise the rest of Aus rugby.

And … the NSW team already has WA players, dunno about Qld (and yes, I am describing Super Rugby).

 

[dru]

I think WA needs a team, either their own or an allegiance.

But the whole purpose of SOU would be defeated if we started recruiting people to QLD or NSW.

What happens if a superstar comes from SA? This will happen soon enough, where does he go?

He nominates into one of the teams. It's fine.

Look I'm probably going to support Reds ahead of these SOU teams as well, I just think all the top talent needs to be on display. I dont mind the idea of a third non Q/NSW barbarians team - but I dont think we can fit the timetable through three teams.

Call them Aussie A (Qld) and Aussie B (NSW), players without allegiance go ACT to NSW B, all other states/territories to Qld A.

 

[dru]

I put it to you, how clear is this origin "concept"?

• Make it too flexible and you lose the essence of the thing. Even in a sport as shameless as rugby league it became a tricked-up farce.

• On the other hand, make it too real and test players start missing out.

RA are packaging up extra content widgets to sell, I get that. Slap on the word "origin" to the old 1882 intercolonial match and behold the rivers of gold, amirite?

It won't get anywhere near what RL does because SOO is their peak with few other options. The maroon-blue SOO concept ain't that in rugby union, a worldwide game with better options.

One match, like the old North-South game the Kiwis are desparately trying to revive in the wake of the plague (and indeed the original "origin" itself), might work. Outside these Covid times, though, a 3-game annual series will cannibalise the rest of Aus rugby.

And … the NSW team already has WA players, dunno about Qld (and yes, I am describing Super Rugby).

Has NOT been a problem in Mun go b where anyone that Qld want is Can Tod the dregs go south. It has worked fine.

How many remember the build up to the first SOO? "It'll be as sucessful and a lead zepplin" and look how that turned out.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

<23yr olds v >23yr olds?

Wallaby trials?

 

[Bobby Sands]

No way they allow WA, ACT, VIC players into these teams.

Concept is dead on arrival if they do.

 

[kiap]

Has NOT been a problem in Mun go b where anyone that Qld want is Can Tod the dregs go south. It has worked fine.

How many remember the build up to the first SOO? "It'll be as sucessful and a lead zepplin" and look how that turned out.

As a small kid at the time I don't remember the build up, or the game. My only faded recollection is of the all-in brawl from the following year.

Looking back now, though, what fuelled SOO success was a combination of Sydney arrogance (some real, some perceived) and the resultant Qld build up of "hate". (in a way not too dissimilar to ARU vs WA in 2017).

Plus, of course, in the case of SOO, the triumphs of the little battler state of Qld after being stripped of players for decades. The "origin" selections were also pretty much legit in those early years.

Simpler times … in many ways the 80s were a time when Australia was still on the way up. Seems to have plateaued and lost its way somewhat now, like much of the western world.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

East Coast Elite v West is Best?