Sydney Colts - 2014

[Dave Beat]

Not missing the point, just making one. With 22 players out of 30 from 3 clubs wonder what club minis and juniors they came from!

I guess we maybe making 2 different points then, my main point is each and every club should be looking to lift the game from mini's up. If they do that well and end up with a strong village club they should be keeping their players.

8 of the 10 players Manly had training with the squad came from the beaches so yes local, 5 of the 6 picked came from the beaches. Could have been 6 from 6 if we swapped Kavapalu with Foketi who is now with the Rebels.

Uni is different to the other 11 clubs, they are making best use of their resources, same as a rugby team you play to your strengths to win. Uni also have a good rugby program. But they can offer what no other club can - that needs to be managed but not bashed.

Managed - and there lays the question.

 

[I like to watch]

Careful choice of words Dave.
5 local players,but 3 Manly juniors.
Which goes back to Baggy Jerseys point.
Strong clubs getting stronger at the expense of smaller/poorer clubs,weakens the competition.
No idea how you stop it though.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

I know the work Manly has done with their junior clubs and the connection they have with those juniors will continue to produce dividends in years to ECM. The development of the Manly Academy is also helping to give Manly a good source of colts players.

I would be interested to hear what work other clubs are doing with their junior clubs. Parra are obviously doing good things and we will see many parra juniors getting higher honours in future (if politics doesn't come into it). So for those having a say about the number of u20's coming from just three clubs how about saying something positive and let us know what your club has been doing to develop a link with their juniors and develop the players and the clubs. It is not solely the SJRU's job, it's not the ARU's job it must be a joint effort where the senior club gets involved.

 

[Dave Beat]

I know the work Manly has done with their junior clubs and the connection they have with those juniors will continue to produce dividends in years to ECM. The development of the Manly Academy is also helping to give Manly a good source of colts players.

I would be interested to hear what work other clubs are doing with their junior clubs. Parra are obviously doing good things and we will see many parra juniors getting higher honours in future (if politics doesn't come into it). So for those having a say about the number of u20's coming from just three clubs how about saying something positive and let us know what your club has been doing to develop a link with their juniors and develop the players and the clubs. It is not solely the SJRU's job, it's not the ARU's job it must be a joint effort where the senior club gets involved.

That is spot on.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I think you may be missing the point, I said if a club spends time with minis and juniors there is a higher chance they'll end up with good colts. Manly won 3 state titles last year I recall 11 12 and 17 why shouldn't those players flow through over the years.

Seriously focus and hard work is required on juniors, all clubs are free to do the same.

Careful with claiming the Manly Under 17's. Reading last years State Champs thread, that team was organised via facebook, and "coached" by one of their own. Apart from the Marlins colts loaning them jumpers, there didn't seem to be much input from the Club. Those boys were just former Marlin junior reps and their mates who wanted to give it a go in their last chance at Junior reps.

While Marlins may have only given them moral support, it does go someway to some of the points that @Dave Beat is making about the rugby culture on the peninsular. The boys just WANTED to play footy. A group of mates got together to make it happen. Barriers were removed to help them to make it happen. It did not need to have every part of the "strategy" orchestrated and manipulated by Adults seeking vainglory.

That kind of "can do", "no worries mate" enthusiasm should be bottled and sold.

 

[Dave Beat]

Careful with claiming the Manly Under 17's. Reading last years State Champs thread, that team was organised via facebook, and "coached" by one of their own. Apart from the Marlins colts loaning them jumpers, there didn't seem to be much input from the Club. Those boys were just former Marlin junior reps and their mates who wanted to give it a go in their last chance at Junior reps.

While Marlins may have only given them moral support, it does go someway to some of the points that @Dave Beat is making about the rugby culture on the peninsular. The boys just WANTED to play footy. A group of mates got together to make it happen. Barriers were removed to help them to make it happen. It did not need to have every part of the "strategy" orchestrated and manipulated by Adults seeking vainglory.

That kind of "can do", "no worries mate" enthusiasm should be bottled and sold.

.



HJ they were in the Marlins Jersey and they won.
In my post above i said 5 of the 6 players representing the Tah's U 20's were from the beaches.

Manly has the academy going now, and if that hard work has assisted development it is one of the benefits of hard work.

My comments and thoughts here are much the same as I've reflected on the those that have been posted on the decline of junior rugby thread.
In minnis and juniors it is about the kids and the mums and dads - money has nothing to do with it. Some clubs are getting involved with the kids and mums and dads and as HJ says that breeds culture. How many future Tah colts are at this Shute Shield game?

Lets grow that mini's and juniors and more talent will rise to the top.

 

[stonecutter]

Sorry but have to disagree with those who claim the governing bodies are not responsible for the situation rugby finds itself in. I admire Uni for reviewing their situation and identifying what they needed to do to turn things around but they were allowed far too much leeway and are now at a point where other clubs have had to do similar things to stay competitive.

I've no doubt Mr Ross will come to the defence of his much loved club (and good on him for being passionate) but the facts are that Uni have an undeniable edge in the market that others have been unable to match.

Number 1 is the vast training and rehabilitation network/system that the University can supply.
Number 2 is their intelligent manipulation of the poorly framed and administered rules surrounding player point qualification.

The rugby community is fully aware of what has been transpiring over this period yet the authorities chose to bury their heads in the sand. This has now led to the point where one of their own clubs has outgrown their competition and is the leading voice in a demand to increase playing opportunities at a level their players require. Dracula is now in charge of the bloodbank.

So what do the other clubs do when the governing body isn't listening? They get in on the act too. Trouble is many can't afford to and in the past few seasons we've seen a number of clubs unable to meet their commitments and verge on folding.

Gordon, once a stronghold of rugby can't field 3 colts teams yet as many as 3-4 of the U20's stars represented that district as juniors. Why did they see the need to move to other clubs to further their careers? Because that is the perception and/or because the other clubs are able to offer a form of inducement. Why are 3 of Warringah's brightest talents playing for Manly? Same reasoning? No offence to Manly as they are only doing what they think they need to do to maintain their currency or to grow.

But what of the others who have no philanthropic support or find themselves in a changing socio economical demographic? What do we do to ensure that these clubs can compete on a semi equal footing? What do the League and AFL have that rugby doesn't apart from professional and capable people administering the game (not someone's old schoolmate)? A form of equalising out the talent distribution through salary caps and/or a draft.

If the real pro's can do it then so can rugby and the club competition could once again become a viable and flourishing pathway/tier to S15 and Wallaby selection instead of creating another money wasting level of poor management.

The people that have allowed the game to turn inwards on itself and cannibalise each other are still there and are actually becoming more defiant to what the general rugby population want (see indifference to 3rd grade colts comp last year) and rugby will become an insignificant major sport uless issues such as juniors, schools clubs and grassroot support issues are addressed.

The prime minister is a former rugby man, perhaps a royal commission into rugby is required. Sorry, e's another ex-Uni boy (tongue firmly in cheek MR ROSS, couldn't resist even allowing for your call on political bi-partisanship).

Three clubs dominating the selection of a 30 man elite squad to the levels now seen has the game treading a dangerous road and it is the administration that needs to review what the game needs to remain open to all of its participants and not just a privileged few.

 

[stonecutter]

I would be interested to hear what work other clubs are doing with their junior clubs. Parra are obviously doing good things and we will see many parra juniors getting higher honours in future (if politics doesn't come into it).

To my understanding Parramatta are doing no more than providing an inclusive environment and some quality work from a committed coaching staff. They haven't "recruited" a single player as they are only interested in young guys who want to play for the sake of playing at whatever level their talent allows. Doesn't matter what your name is or what school you went too, just whether you want to be a Two Blue. Word is they have nearly enough players for 5 teams. Hopefully they will all stay despite the politics of representative rugby selections.

 

[Dave Beat]

• I think the governing body should look at mini's and Juniors so yes they are responsible.
• Uni played within the rules and got better, if a team is up by 20 do they stop trying? (* below*).
• Gordon was strong when they were in touch with the schools, Hawkins was from shore and also coached the school boys. I.e. very close with the juniors and it developed from there.
• Marlins V Rats - i only have one eye there so wont comment.

But what of the others who have no philanthropic support or find themselves in a changing socio economical demographic? What do we do to ensure that these clubs can compete on a semi equal footing? What do the League and AFL have that rugby doesn't apart from professional and capable people administering the game (not someone's old schoolmate)? A form of equalising out the talent distribution through salary caps and/or a draft.

There is a question in this - and I'll provide an example. Parra's change over the last 3 years hasn't come about because of changes the governing body made.

*above* This is not having a go at Uni - There are 11 clubs in the comp and one University.

@Stonecutter i have made reference to the juniors a number of times above, and even included your Highlanders in an example.
The clubs and need to spend time with them, not just the mums and dads. That being said the mums and dads need to take their kids to the Shute Shield games - they'll learn what team they'll be playing for in years to come.

 

[Dave Beat]

I would be interested to hear what work other clubs are doing with their junior clubs. Parra are obviously doing good things and we will see many parra juniors getting higher honours in future (if politics doesn't come into it).

To my understanding Parramatta are doing no more than providing an inclusive environment and some quality work from a committed coaching staff. They haven't "recruited" a single player as they are only interested in young guys who want to play for the sake of playing at whatever level their talent allows. Doesn't matter what your name is or what school you went too, just whether you want to be a Two Blue. Word is they have nearly enough players for 5 teams. Hopefully they will all stay despite the politics of representative rugby selections.

Spot on.

Using this as an example - wouldn't it be terrible if some of their players made rep honors and politics said you have to many reps players and you have to share them out.

Some times players change clubs because they want to play for a stronger club and they move - politics has nothing to do with it when that happens.

 

[stonecutter]

Dave,
Each club is now a victim of a set of circumstances that have been allowed to eventuate while no governance was taking place Yes, everyone has intelligently worked (manipulated) within the rules, but the rules were and still are rubbish and amateurish. Manly shouldn't be punished for developing their juniors through to seniors but neither should the Rats or any other club.

Manly should have been able to devote whatever was offered to those Rats players to some of their own without fear that if those Rats players didn't move club then they would be unable to compete. Even if clubs do invest in development of juniors they know that if one of the Guru's says move to a kid they will go. As strong as Manly are now, what happens if another club inherits a fortune and decides that Hodge, Domkins, Northam and any others would look better in their colours.

Somebody with integrity needs to be sourced to review and identify the real issues that have led to all of this and to take effective measures to stop the cancer before the patient expires.

The latest debacle with the Colts points ratings shows that no one within the current administration is yet capable.

 

[stonecutter]

Dave,

Again, it's not so much as about when they are grown adults and seasoned professionals seeking a career opportunity. It's about when they are impressionable kids who hand on every word of a couple of adults with their own agendas

 

[Dave Beat]

Dave,
Each club is now a victim of a set of circumstances that have been allowed to eventuate while no governance was taking place Yes, everyone has intelligently worked (manipulated) within the rules, but the rules were and still are rubbish and amateurish. Manly shouldn't be punished for developing their juniors through to seniors but neither should the Rats or any other club.

The latest debacle with the Colts points ratings shows that no one within the current administration is yet capable.

Lets not complain about success, lets build success.
Sent you a PM

 

[Tah and feathered]

I saw the list of the NSW 20s team and in my opinion the selectors played safe and picked AUST schoolboys from 2012 and 2013 and a few players who played slightly less level. They have not really picked a bolter who did very well last season in the Colts. I wrote a passionate plea to Michael cheika to consider a player from the club I follow and asked just to invite him to a couple of training sessions and I received no reply.
I feel they were only interested in known players
From the squad listed how many of those players will ever play say 20 1st grade games for there clubs
Force, rebels and Brumbies will start signing them next year or the year after and shift them too there states
So where is the value in signing up Aust schoolboy players unless locals with costs associated. NSW country player makes Aust schoolboys it costs to bring him to Sydney plus 6 points then makes NSW 20s for possibly 2 years then the Force sign him, thank you very much mr club for all the development and exposure and getting him settled and used to living away from mum and Dad and maybe already into a Uni course or trade and mr club never see's that player again. That is a bigger concern to clubs than how many players from certain clubs are in the 20s squad.

 

[Baggy Jersey]

I hope there are many future stars involved in this game, only problem is theyll all finish up playing for one of the few clubs with money

 

[Dave Beat]

I hope there are many future stars involved in this game, only problem is theyll all finish up playing for one of the few clubs with money

I hope there are many stars to come, so do I.

Belly excuse me for the moment, ref the Two Blues thread. baggy I suppose you are going to say because their hard work created sponsors they are now one of the clubs with money and that is why they've succeeded.

Hard work.

Baggy, Parra could have complained and not turn up to games.

 

[Baggy Jersey]

Ok we can have a 4 team comp, maybe Izzy et al will visit Parra colts training and tell them not to accept any offers from the other 3 teams, role models.

 

[Dave Beat]

Ok we can have a 4 team comp, maybe Izzy et al will visit Parra colts training and tell them not to accept any offers from the other 3 teams, role models.

Baggy welcome aboard, and great to have your contributions.
You have raised a concern which has been raised long ago.
Looking at areas to improve rather than being critical.
I'd like to see all clubs focus on the minis and juniors greater number coming through in the game will assist in balancing it out.
To create those numbers requires hard work.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

<snip> They have not really picked a bolter who did very well last season in the Colts. I wrote a passionate plea to Michael cheika to consider a player from the club I follow and asked just to invite him to a couple of training sessions and I received no reply.
I feel they were only interested in known players
<snip>.

Over in the Jnr World Cup Thread, @Lee Grant has just posted that Chieka told him that the Tahs contacted all the clubs to tell them to send any bolters that they had along to training/selection trials, along with the usual suspects ("the Rock Stars", "the chosen few", "the Koala Club", "the elite chosen at the Under 15s" etc), that the Talent Selectors had nominated.

@Lee Grant has a fairly finely tuned bullsh!t radar, and he did not seem to believe that the Chieka was telling a furphy. MC seems to be a fairly fair dinkum sort of bloke.

Do you know if your possible bolter is rated by his club?
Perhaps they somehow forgot to tell him to turn up and trial.

 

[no9]

@Lee Grant has just posted that Chieka told him that the Tahs contacted all the clubs to tell them to send any bolters that they had along to training/selection trials,

With all due respect to Lee G, Chek (as the adoring public now call him) had to be dragged to an agreement by a couple of clubs to get their players into the original training squad and then they only picked those with a Manu portfolio anyway.

Feedback was that the Australian age coaching team were only interested in those that had been in the national talent program. Great public relations exercise with little value to the young guys who busted a gut to have a shot.

Can someone also explain why players were selected at Colts level when they haven't actually experienced a colts game other than a few Moore park internal trials. This fascination we have of denying one age level an opportunity to play to players who haven't reached that age is beyond me. Let them wait their turn for Christ's sake.

Dave Beat, Parramatta developed a junior through their program who went on to Australian schools level and when he wanted to continue playing rugby he was told he had to play for Randwick or no deal. He's still with Parramatta, THE EELS. Thanks Check.

No one wants to deny a club the opportunity to rebuild and develop but you have to keep the vultures away.