7137
Alex Ross (28)
Only three of those players mentioned were locally developed and anywhere near the Wallabies
why does the Force need to pay people more than other franchises?
Week 8 - Waratahs vs Force - Saturday 15 April @ 7:35pm
- Thread starter Braveheart81
- Start date
farva
Vay Wilson (31)
You missed the point on the players mentioned. They came to the Force as unproven players. Be that from Sydney, Perth, Brisbane, whatever. At the Force they developed to the point where they were in Wallaby contention.
Coleman, Philip, Hardwick, DHP, Naisarani, McCalman and Rona are all capped and we’re at the Force. Peni (not sure why it autocorrected to Apenisa) was the form Aus wing in that 2017 super season. Rangi, Ruru, RHP and Louwrens were all quality players, maybe not Wallaby’s but certainly not far off.
why would the Force need to pay overs for an established Wallaby? Why would an established Wallaby want to uproot their family and move from a team that they are getting regular game time unless it’s for more money?
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
I get your sentiment that being cut had a detrimental impact on The Force as a lot of their local players moved on (most to the Rebels initially), but giving them a dispensation to go above the salary cap makes no sense to me as all it will do is pull talent from the other Australian teams and/or inflate the value of players in the local market, increasing the cost of players for all the other local teams. Rugby in Australia has struggled for a long time with the economics of the game, but they don't have the financial foundation on which to be inflating player salaries. We've seen the outcomes of this in England with teams running at unsustainable costs. We've also seen that most of our local teams have struggled with having the necessary depth, especially when compared to the NZ teams, such that the reality of five teams in Australia already appears to be stretching things somewhat. There is also an argument for having more of the Wallabies concentrated in less teams (but that is a whole different discussion).
I'm not sure what the arrangements are for Moana Pasifika and/or Fiji Drua, but I'd be surprised if they are spending above the Rugby AU franchise salary caps either.
Also, I know you were trying to make a point about the quality of the squad in 2017, but many of those players you listed were the product of coming through other systems, not WA. For example;
- Philips - NSW
- Coleman - TAS and through the NSW Shute Shield, small stint at Waratahs.
- Naisarani - Fiji through the Qld Ruby system (Brisbane City from memory)
- Ben McCalman - NSW (pretty sure he lives up in rural NSW once again)
- Michael Ruru - NZ-er
DHP, RHP, Hardwick, Louwrens (though pretty sure a Joberg product?), Rona (with his League detours) ... even Rangi.. sure. There is no doubt that after 10 or so years of marquee style signings that local talent was starting to come through, but if all those junior pathways are still there and considering The Force was still playing in the NRC/GRR (they didn't entirely disappear), there should be other possible junior talent coming through the WA system, surely? - Dane Sawers, Caleb Karangaroa & Ryan McGloin were all in the U18's last year.. and Marley Pearce, Ned Slack-Smith were named in the Junior Wallabies this year, along with Caleb & Ryan.. so there is some talent, but I don't recall many Junior Wallabies in recent years being from WA, except the odd name like Michael McDonald who was as much Irish as a WA product. I think the reality is one of accepting a rebuild much like many of the other franchises have had to do at points. Thorn did this with Qld when he brought through a rather young team when he started (with a core from his NRC endeavors). Signing younger players on some longterm contracts, investing in them and building a team with a core to create some cohesion is likely a better path than trying to attract players on money alone who don't stick around in WA. The marquee model I don't think has ever worked all that well in the longterm for any of the Australian teams.
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farva
Vay Wilson (31)
I’m not suggesting these players were bred through WA, but rather they came to the Force with potential but as raw super players, and that potential was realised at the Force. Philip for instance joined the Force at 22. He wasn’t in Wallaby contention then but was a prospect. By getting him at 22 and growing him for a few years he would be likely to be an established Wallaby that stays at the Force without paying overs to attract him as an established Wallaby.The Force are doing that now with new players but it will take 5 years to do so. They are just starting with guys like Anstee (who had potential and came from NSW).
On the salary cap issue, the Force are behind the eight ball in terms of recruitment. To get an established Wallaby they need to pay more, because the players they grew left when they were cut. I understand the concern about inflating salaries but something needs to be done otherwise you are stuffing WA rugby. Perhaps some relief on players bought back from overseas?
On the salary cap issue, the Force are behind the eight ball in terms of recruitment. To get an established Wallaby they need to pay more, because the players they grew left when they were cut. I understand the concern about inflating salaries but something needs to be done otherwise you are stuffing WA rugby. Perhaps some relief on players bought back from overseas?
farva
Vay Wilson (31)
I also see your point on rebuilding, but the last time Perth had a reasonable team to get behind was 2017. I’m not sure the Force being the whipping boys for six years and counting is doing anything to grow the game in Perth. That isn’t rebuilding that is consistency.
On the u18s and schoolboys, it’s still made up of Qld and NSW primarily, but there are typically a handful of WA players in there. Similar to Vic and ACT. Sticking with the Rebels and Force, and having them competitive will see that share grow.
On the u18s and schoolboys, it’s still made up of Qld and NSW primarily, but there are typically a handful of WA players in there. Similar to Vic and ACT. Sticking with the Rebels and Force, and having them competitive will see that share grow.
7137
Alex Ross (28)
Someone passing through the Force for a season does not equate to local development.
Why is the need to pay extra for recruiting an existing Wallaby any different for the Force than anywhere else? All teams have to do that.
The Forces issues with recruiting are not unique to the Force. At least you don’t have 10 professional league teams to compete with for young talent.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
What level of support do you have then for the Sua'ali'i deal?
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
He's not arguing either way about it being local development.
He's saying it's cheaper to hire younger players earlier, and therefore more time is required for them to compete.
farva
Vay Wilson (31)
I’ve been at pains to try and explain the developed locally point. It does not mean they came through the WA system, it means they came to Perth not as a raw 20 year old (whether developed in Sydney, Qld, Vic, or Perth is irrelevant) and developed from that to either Wallaby’s or at least in the discussions. Nick Frost isn’t from Canberra but he was developed by the Brumbies for example.
Why does the Force need to pay over? The Tahs have already got a stable of exstablisged Wallaby’s. They don’t need to pay extra to bring them across.
Do you think the Force could lure say Angus Bell to Perth by paying him the same as he currently earns in Sydney? Or do you think he would need more to move West?
farva
Vay Wilson (31)
Yes!!!
7137
Alex Ross (28)
So you think RA should let you spend more than the Salary cap to poach players developed by other sides?
molman
Peter Johnson (47)
This is a Wallabies contract first and foremost that is being funded via a specific investment by external parties. If Sua'ali'i wanted to play for The Force I'm sure RugbyAU would have ultimately said no worries.
Likely. But having The Force (WA) pay more to have Wallaby players shuffle from their current team makes no sense for Rugby in Australia and would unlikely result in The Force suddenly being a top performing team, only dilute the talent already in Australia. They've already lured a couple of Wallabies. You lost Philip, you gained Rodda. No one is stuffing WA, they just need to be smart about recruitment moving forward and to be attracting some younger talent who build an affinity with both the team and WA if that is not their home state (or even country if you've attracted them from NZ, SA etc.. or Fiji, Tonga, Samoa etc..). Countries like Ireland, Scotland & Wales for example have been doing a pretty a good job of scraping the world for any possible player with some heritage (or getting players young and then into the national teams via residency). WA could look to do the reverse (climate in WA might be attractive to some of those northern lads with some links to Australia). There is also a lot of young Australian boys running around in Japan, some who have even percolated up to the Japanese team. Again, The Force should be scouting out some of these future prospects.
Anyway, this could be discussed back and forward, but in a match thread isn't likely the best location.
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farva
Vay Wilson (31)
I think the Force shouldn’t have been cut and have the players they developed stay with them so they don’t need to seek new players.
But that didn’t happen.
farva
Vay Wilson (31)
Fair point I’ll move it to the Force thread.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
I did ask whether you supported the Sua'ali'i deal. Is that a yes or no?
For the record, ... I support those wealthy individuals taking a punt.
It does make the salary cap a laugh, though.
Sua'ali'i doesn't want to play for the Force. But others might.
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Derpus
George Gregan (70)
The salary cap is already laugh with the whole RA top up thing making it inherently impossible to balance. Throw in NZR contracts and its all over the shop.
Drew
Bob Davidson (42)
Maybe a war chest to bring Aussies back from OS?
There's now a judiciary hearing tonight. I am guessing that means he didn't plead guilty yesterday.
brokendown
Vay Wilson (31)
Has the maxwell Smart cone of silence been lifted from this hearing yet?